Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes. And seeing as this is a motoring forum the same goes for the stupid rush to go EV when most people just cannot afford to and what is rapidly becoming a farcical situation with the charging situation.
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Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes.
One of the biggest reasons for the rise in electricity and gas prices is the price of gas...if the government had got into being green much earlier more could have been done...more solar/wind generation and replacing the aging nuclear reactors would have meant we were a lot more protected from the price rises and have less pollution in the UK - would that not have been a good thing?
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Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes.
One of the biggest reasons for the rise in electricity and gas prices is the price of gas...if the government had got into being green much earlier more could have been done...more solar/wind generation and replacing the aging nuclear reactors would have meant we were a lot more protected from the price rises and have less pollution in the UK - would that not have been a good thing?
It appears from the day to day reporting that the National Grid does not have enough capacity without relying on France and Norway. I wonder what the price of gas that it is burning to give us 50% of our electric is compared to the price the consumer is paying for its gas. It has apparently "warmed " up on standby 2 coal fired power station. Why for h don't they put them on line when we are in the doldrums of high pressure, it would be a drop in the worlds oceans as far as any Co2 and pollution. The consumer every one of us rich or POOR as been stuck with standing charges of some £273 before we even switch on the light. We are all still stuck with VAT at 5% on our bills which is a nice earner with our bills being so high, off setting the £400 per household which ends in March. Today there have been reported power cuts from Birmingham to Cornwall. The not so well off are paying a high price for this green policy
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The coal fired power stations don't work for free - you have to buy the coal. Running them up wouldn't reduce anyone's bills.
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I'm not sure about Norway but the UK exports electricity to France via the interconnectors when they need it and we have spare. So it's a two-way flow. Seems highly sensible to me. The French grid has been under more stress than usual due to nuclear maintenance.
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I wonder if the French have asked their citizens to turn off their lights, we all know how helpful they are. I wonder what the staff in the coal fired stations are doing all day if they are not generating, moving the coal from one pile to the other?. All " reasonable"" energy companies are moving those who cannot pay onto prepayment meters which in itself is a retrograde step and they have no chance of any rebates to the switch off scheme. They are lucky if they can switch on and stay that way and are paying more. Surely the advent of the switch off scheme is an admission of a failing grid dressed up as appearing green. Can you imagine the "fun" people must be having resetting all their timers and cooker clocks when switching off, drives me mad when there is a power cut. I very much doubt if we will ever see the fuel bills that we had last winter for all the excuses that we are given now for the high prices that we are paying. We should NOT be picking up the bill for failed energy companies. The whole free market was flawed from the outset and directors made millions and walked away.
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I wonder if the French have asked their citizens to turn off their lights, we all know how helpful they are. I wonder what the staff in the coal fired stations are doing all day if they are not generating, moving the coal from one pile to the other?.
I've no idea what the French are doing to incentivise their consumers to reduce usage. Whatever it is it'll primarily benefit their own folks as it's only a few percent points of their capacity going, either way, over the interconnector.
Keeping a coal fired generating station on standby will mean kit, much of it old and life expired, requires constant activity. Probably needs nearly the same staffing as when actually generating.
I agree that moving indebted customers to prepay, where they may self disconnect, is a scandal. Only time before there's a tragedy when alternative heating/lighting leads to a house fire.
The cashback offer we're discussing is about reducing peak demand, usually in the early evening when people are cooking etc. Not a time when many EVs are on charge.
That we need to do so is, as pointed out upthread, the result of the way privatised electricity companies went for cheap solutions, sweated assets and dividends ahead of investment.
I'm still wondering what your alternative is to keep the lights on during exceptional demand in a cold snap.
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"""I'm still wondering what your alternative is to keep the lights on during exceptional demand in a cold snap."""
Well may I suggest that industry and the high street are targeted at peak demand. Also it may be a good idea to ban EV charging at peak after all these vehicles seem to have an insatiable appetite for electric in this cold weather.
A spokes person for a company leasing EVs is suggesting EV users do not use the vehicles heating in cold weather but to rely on seat heating and steering wheel heating. What a load on nonsense, fancy not being able to cope without these luxuries.
Also I read but do not know how true but some football clubs are leaving their floodlights on 24hours a day to help the grass grow. The truth is that people with money to spare are not the least be interested in saving electric.
Just how much pollution and emission does burning gas in a power station cause and why is their talk about banning gas boilers for heat pumps which are run by electric I would love to know how you can get 20degrees C out of an air source heat pump in this weather. If you live in Scotland you can get an heat pump for £499 apparently, a bit of a difference to some £15-£25k quoted How do they do it?
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"""I'm still wondering what your alternative is to keep the lights on during exceptional demand in a cold snap."""
Well may I suggest that industry and the high street are targeted at peak demand. Also it may be a good idea to ban EV charging at peak after all these vehicles seem to have an insatiable appetite for electric in this cold weather.
A spokes person for a company leasing EVs is suggesting EV users do not use the vehicles heating in cold weather but to rely on seat heating and steering wheel heating. What a load on nonsense, fancy not being able to cope without these luxuries.
Also I read but do not know how true but some football clubs are leaving their floodlights on 24hours a day to help the grass grow. The truth is that people with money to spare are not the least be interested in saving electric.
Just how much pollution and emission does burning gas in a power station cause and why is their talk about banning gas boilers for heat pumps which are run by electric I would love to know how you can get 20degrees C out of an air source heat pump in this weather. If you live in Scotland you can get an heat pump for £499 apparently, a bit of a difference to some £15-£25k quoted How do they do it?
Must be a poor quality and/or very low output unit for £499 in my view.
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Just how much pollution and emission does burning gas in a power station cause
Worldwide emissions of carbon dioxide (CO2) from burning fossil fuels total about 34 billion tonnes (Gt) per year. About 45% of this is from coal, about 35% from oil and about 20% from gas.
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"""I'm still wondering what your alternative is to keep the lights on during exceptional demand in a cold snap."""
Well may I suggest that industry and the high street are targeted at peak demand. Also it may be a good idea to ban EV charging at peak after all these vehicles seem to have an insatiable appetite for electric in this cold weather.
I expect most EV charging is done overnight.
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. Can you imagine the "fun" people must be having resetting all their timers and cooker clocks when switching off, drives me mad when there is a power cut. I very much doubt if we will ever see the fuel bills that we had last winter for all the excuses that we are given now for the high prices that we are paying. We should NOT be picking up the bill for failed energy companies. The whole free market was flawed from the outset and directors made millions and walked away.
They're switching their own lights off, not the company switching the power off, so the clicks won't be affected.
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Can you imagine the "fun" people must be having resetting all their timers and cooker clocks when switching off, drives me mad when there is a power cut.
You are just meant to reduce usage during peak hours eg not using a tumble dryer - not turn off the main electricity supply to your house.
Who should pick up the bill for a failed energy company? If one fails...the government ensure that you don't loose your supply and someone else takes you over...if they did not then there may not be a company that wants you...and then you would have no power. Would you want that safety net taken away.
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Can you imagine the "fun" people must be having resetting all their timers and cooker clocks when switching off, drives me mad when there is a power cut.
You are just meant to reduce usage during peak hours eg not using a tumble dryer - not turn off the main electricity supply to your house.
Who should pick up the bill for a failed energy company? If one fails...the government ensure that you don't loose your supply and someone else takes you over...if they did not then there may not be a company that wants you...and then you would have no power. Would you want that safety net taken away.
Some consumers did in fact turn off items on standby and some chose to sit in the dark.
Only right that customers of failed energy companies were transfer to a company that could or would take them. What is not fair to the rest of us is the transfer of the failed debt to the consumer and the costs of the transfer. I believe Bulb picked up some £ 1.6 billion to accept failed consumers from us the tax payer.
With regard to the failed companies they bought energy forward that they could not pay for. It was rather stupid of the wholesale suppliers to these firm to supply the energy and they are the ones who should have the pain of not getting paid. How could some of the failed firms have had decent credit assets to take on such commitments? They did not. The customers of these failed energy companies have been bailed on tariffs that they have no control over and the whole market is in a mess.
I have read today that Shell Energy is thinking of pulling out of this market.
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<< The not so well off are paying a high price for this green policy >>
So you don't see any point in reducing emissions for the long term. Whenever money starts to talk, pain today is always more important than pain next week. I suppose that is the normal way of the world.
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Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes.
One of the biggest reasons for the rise in electricity and gas prices is the price of gas...if the government had got into being green much earlier more could have been done...more solar/wind generation and replacing the aging nuclear reactors would have meant we were a lot more protected from the price rises and have less pollution in the UK - would that not have been a good thing?
Replacing ageing nuclear power stations yes, expanding nuclear significantly, yes, but no to solar/wind in terms of subsidised commercial generation - as I've said before, it never delivers on its green or generation promises, despoils the landscape and is rapidly bankrupting the nation by making huge profits (despite the tech now supposedly being 'mature') only via huge subsidies over long contratcs.
PV electricity generation at local level (not solar farms, which also take awy vital farmland as well as despoil the landscape) should have been embraced wholeheartedly but wasn't by all political parties.
Homes, offices and especially (all, not just new build) large footprint buildings such as warehouse, factories, sports and shopping centres, schools, etc should have been actively encouraged via tax breaks and initial favourable feed-in tarriffs (targeted at large producers and the less well off, including for social housing to benefit the landlord and tenant) to have POV panels fitted and mandated for all suitable new builds, including facilitation of good access for maintenance / upgrades over the lifetime of the buildings.
Add to that we could've had a world-leading PV panel production set up and perhaps even similar for other viable green tech, rather than poorly thought-out, late-to-the-party ones like that battery production facilitiy that went bust and presumably will be sold to some foreign (likely Chinese or Musk) buyer where the UK barely benefits.
This would easily negate the need for any solar farms and would democratise the whole process, whereas now it just further enriches the rich and powerful / influential and hostile foreign regimes like China.
I just read a report also that the (US) organisation behind the 'ban natural gas and boilers' plan that has been 'doing the rounds' at influential governmental level (I guarantee it was discussed away from the media spotlight at Davos) was funded, yes, you've guessed it, by a cabal of billionairre businessmen (guess which is at the top of the list - you'll only need one to get it right) pushing for this whilst actively investing in a big way in certyain 'green' tech and other new laws to ban X or Y in order to make them even richer and more powerful at everyone else's (apart from their cronies and a few 'loyal' supplicant politicians) expense.
Conspiracy theory it ain't, this time only taking a matter of days and weeks to being denied to 'it's a good thing'.
Oddly enough, the price of gas has dropped so much and yet the price cap (a ridiculous socialist idea, just shows how weak and stupid the Tories were for doing what Labour and other left wing parties 'demanded') remains high.
The same goes for petrol, and another report this morning proved that the retailers have doubled their margin over the last year or so on petrol and by 50% on diesel, which is why prices have not fallen anywhere near as much as they should've done (or as quickly) in recent months.
Apparently (according to the report) they have done so because governments made veiled threats of windfall taxes on them, so in return for keeping prices artificially high, governments get a lot more revenues from sales taxes and don't have to endure clap-back from voters for the fuel suppliers passing on windfall taxes directly to the consumer.
What a lovely world we live in.
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"""Oddly enough, the price of gas has dropped so much and yet the price cap (a ridiculous socialist idea, just shows how weak and stupid the Tories were for doing what Labour and other left wing parties 'demanded') remains high.
The same goes for petrol, and another report this morning proved that the retailers have doubled their margin over the last year or so on petrol and by 50% on diesel, which is why prices have not fallen anywhere near as much as they should've done (or as quickly) in recent months.""
Surely the above must be the prime cause of 11% inflation. It is certainly not wages as these are struggling to keep pace
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Wage demands always follow inflation so when the Tories claim high wage demands will fuel inflation they're lying (again)
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Good to see that this forum has access to top-notch economists.
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Wage demands always follow inflation so when the Tories claim high wage demands will fuel inflation they're lying (again)
Don't see how you work that out. Pretty well all price increases are caused by someone's wages somewhere, except for 'overheads'. When wages go up, prices have to follow, so the inflation lasts a bit longer.
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Wage demands always follow inflation so when the Tories claim high wage demands will fuel inflation they're lying (again)
Don't see how you work that out. Pretty well all price increases are caused by someone's wages somewhere, except for 'overheads'. When wages go up, prices have to follow, so the inflation lasts a bit longer.
Prices go up for many reasons, war in Ukraine for instance or COVID or OPEC deciding to put their prices up. Then inflation rises and people want higher wages. Public sector workers wages aren't the cause of inflation either.
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Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes.
One of the biggest reasons for the rise in electricity and gas prices is the price of gas...if the government had got into being green much earlier more could have been done...more solar/wind generation and replacing the aging nuclear reactors would have meant we were a lot more protected from the price rises and have less pollution in the UK - would that not have been a good thing?
Replacing ageing nuclear power stations yes, expanding nuclear significantly, yes, but no to solar/wind in terms of subsidised commercial generation - as I've said before, it never delivers on its green or generation promises, despoils the landscape and is rapidly bankrupting the nation by making huge profits (despite the tech now supposedly being 'mature') only via huge subsidies over long contratcs.
Solar/Wind generation despoils the landscape...are coal/gas power stations enhancing it? Something that emits less pollution is not always going to look pretty.
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""olar/Wind generation despoils the landscape...are coal/gas power stations enhancing it? Something that emits less pollution is not always going to look pretty.
The power stations and for that matter the nuclear ones are few and far between. You have acres and acres of Windfarms on land and sea. They are on eyesore to many and are killing birds. You then have the resources and minerals generating pollution and CO2 going into the making and position of these things usually in that environmentally stuff called concrete. And then there is the ongoing land and sea maintenance of these things all very green and non polluting ,I don't think.
As for solar a much better bet in the right place. Unfortunately this has become another big money earner for land owners. Large areas of good agricultural land is being given over to site some of these ""farms"" they call them. And once the panels generate the electric large banks of environmentally batteries are needed to store the energy... All not so green as some would like one to think.
There is a ""battle"" going on near where I live to site a solar farm on an SSSI to appease some major company. I wonder who will win
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""olar/Wind generation despoils the landscape...are coal/gas power stations enhancing it? Something that emits less pollution is not always going to look pretty.
The power stations and for that matter the nuclear ones are few and far between. You have acres and acres of Windfarms on land and sea. They are on eyesore to many and are killing birds. You then have the resources and minerals generating pollution and CO2 going into the making and position of these things usually in that environmentally stuff called concrete. And then there is the ongoing land and sea maintenance of these things all very green and non polluting ,I don't think.
As for solar a much better bet in the right place. Unfortunately this has become another big money earner for land owners. Large areas of good agricultural land is being given over to site some of these ""farms"" they call them. And once the panels generate the electric large banks of environmentally batteries are needed to store the energy... All not so green as some would like one to think.
There is a ""battle"" going on near where I live to site a solar farm on an SSSI to appease some major company. I wonder who will win
Making say a wind turbine is not likely to not emit any pollution or use any resources. Why would it? Generating wind power emits much less pollution even when taking into account maintenance.
Just some info about birds:
'As wind energy has grown in popularity, reports of birds killed by wind turbines have become more common. Few studies have investigated the phenomenon, but estimates suggest that between 10,000 and 100,000 birds are killed by turbine blade strikes annually in the UK.
That’s a lot, but it’s worth noting that approximately 55 million birds are killed in the UK each year by domestic cats. Nevertheless, research suggests there may be ways to make wind turbines safer for wildlife. For example, a small-scale study in Norway found that painting one of the wind turbines blades black, reduced bird deaths by 70 per cent.'
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Making say a wind turbine is not likely to not emit any pollution or use any resources. Why would it? Generating wind power emits much less pollution even when taking into account maintenance.
there was talk of making turbines inside the tall tube where the wind turbine can work at lower speeds and produce electricity even when the wind is not blowing as hard, basically a wind tunnel, where several turbines could be used instead of one large one but making more electricity
they are less likely to cause harm to wildlife and shed blade materials which has been a problem with wind turbines, so it should be a win win with these new turbines, miniature versions are being put on roofs for household use which appear to work well without looking like an eyesore, I`m surprised no one came up with the idea a long time ago
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The power stations and for that matter the nuclear ones are few and far between. You have acres and acres of Windfarms on land and sea. They are on eyesore to many and are killing birds. You then have the resources and minerals generating pollution and CO2 going into the making and position of these things usually in that environmentally stuff called concrete. And then there is the ongoing land and sea maintenance of these things all very green and non polluting ,I don't think.
In England (a bit different in Scotland) recent wind power development has been offshore. Not many acres on land recently. Sure there are huge arrays in (say) Liverpool bay. Can you provide a reputable source that the CO2 etc from or in their production is a significant downside, even before counting the payback in CO2 free electricity. Right now, under the influence of normal Atlantic weather systems - one on place another on the way - 46% of our electricity is coming from wind and around 14% from gas. Even solar, and it's only January so the sun is weak, is contributing 6%.
As for solar a much better bet in the right place. Unfortunately this has become another big money earner for land owners. Large areas of good agricultural land is being given over to site some of these ""farms"" they call them. And once the panels generate the electric large banks of environmentally batteries are needed to store the energy... All not so green as some would like one to think.
Again, is there any reputable source for the suggestion that 'good' agricultural land is being used? Arrays round here are on fields that struggled to grow more than the odd crop of rape, other years they were fallow.
There is a ""battle"" going on near where I live to site a solar farm on an SSSI to appease some major company. I wonder who will win
NIMBY battles are everywhere.
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Is it fair that because of short comings in the national Grid that some consumers will actually be paid to switch off lights and appliances at peak times, Surely the people who choose not to or cannot comply because they do not have a smart meter are subsidising those who do? What a crazy system and its called Demand Flexibility Service. The older I get the more it seems that I am heading backwards to the 19th century.
What do you think should be done instead?
I think the Gov should draw a line under most of this green nonsense and get realistic before it bankrupts the country. It is a sad state when a large percentage of the country cannot afford to heat their homes.
One of the biggest reasons for the rise in electricity and gas prices is the price of gas...if the government had got into being green much earlier more could have been done...more solar/wind generation and replacing the aging nuclear reactors would have meant we were a lot more protected from the price rises and have less pollution in the UK - would that not have been a good thing?
Replacing ageing nuclear power stations yes, expanding nuclear significantly, yes, but no to solar/wind in terms of subsidised commercial generation - as I've said before, it never delivers on its green or generation promises, despoils the landscape and is rapidly bankrupting the nation by making huge profits (despite the tech now supposedly being 'mature') only via huge subsidies over long contratcs.
Solar/Wind generation despoils the landscape...are coal/gas power stations enhancing it? Something that emits less pollution is not always going to look pretty.
How about not putting words into my mouth Alan? Please show me when I said that. I said that nuclear power stations were the main way forward. Besides, other conventional fossil fuelled ones are far smaller in terms of footprint per GWh of electricity produced than are required for solar farms and wind turbines.
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Solar/Wind generation despoils the landscape...are coal/gas power stations enhancing it? Something that emits less pollution is not always going to look pretty.
How about not putting words into my mouth Alan? Please show me when I said that. I said that nuclear power stations were the main way forward. Besides, other conventional fossil fuelled ones are far smaller in terms of footprint per GWh of electricity produced than are required for solar farms and wind turbines.
You said a negative for wind/solar is that they despoil the landscape, I'm not sure why that would need to be an issue when fossil fuel power stations are hardly seen as pretty. Not putting words into your mouth - you are seeing things that are not there.
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I just read a report also that the (US) organisation behind the 'ban natural gas and boilers' plan that has been 'doing the rounds' at influential governmental level (I guarantee it was discussed away from the media spotlight at Davos) was funded, yes, you've guessed it, by a cabal of billionairre businessmen (guess which is at the top of the list - you'll only need one to get it right) pushing for this whilst actively investing in a big way in certyain 'green' tech and other new laws to ban X or Y in order to make them even richer and more powerful at everyone else's (apart from their cronies and a few 'loyal' supplicant politicians) expense.
Come on, spill the beans, who is in this cabal of billionaires?
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I just read a report also that the (US) organisation behind the 'ban natural gas and boilers' plan that has been 'doing the rounds' at influential governmental level (I guarantee it was discussed away from the media spotlight at Davos) was funded, yes, you've guessed it, by a cabal of billionairre businessmen (guess which is at the top of the list - you'll only need one to get it right) pushing for this whilst actively investing in a big way in certyain 'green' tech and other new laws to ban X or Y in order to make them even richer and more powerful at everyone else's (apart from their cronies and a few 'loyal' supplicant politicians) expense.
Come on, spill the beans, who is in this cabal of billionaires?
Here we go again. Trying to get the thread stopped by the mods like you did the other day when your side of the argument got show up once again as made of straw?
It might be useful if you actually made a genuinely constructive point for a change, one using actual facts. perhaps you should expand your reading list to more than just the Grauniad and BBC 'News'. You might learn something.
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Come on, spill the beans, who is in this cabal of billionaires?
Here we go again. Trying to get the thread stopped by the mods like you did the other day when your side of the argument got show up once again as made of straw? >>
Andy, you don't like answering straight questions, do you ? Respond by asking another, only faintly connected. How do you know the mod(s) will stop the thread ?
And Alan has no need to put words in your mouth, as there are plenty enough there already :-)
Edited by Andrew-T on 29/01/2023 at 14:34
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Come on, spill the beans, who is in this cabal of billionaires?
Here we go again. Trying to get the thread stopped by the mods like you did the other day when your side of the argument got show up once again as made of straw? >>
Andy, you don't like answering straight questions, do you ? Respond by asking another, only faintly connected. How do you know the mod(s) will stop the thread ?
And Alan has no need to put words in your mouth, as there are plenty enough there already :-)
I might give an answer if I thought that the person asking it didn't know what my/the answer is, especially as exactly the same question was asked in that other thread that was stopped just a few days ago.
So why did Alan respond at all - just to lie because he can't help himself? Stop gaslighting and (as Brompt) bring something to the debate rather than do you best to get it shut down - again.
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So why did Alan respond at all - just to lie because he can't help himself? Stop gaslighting and (as Brompt) bring something to the debate rather than do you best to get it shut down - again.
You are not being gas lighted - you should read up and see what is actually means. I've not lied to you either.
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So why did Alan respond at all - just to lie because he can't help himself? Stop gaslighting and (as Brompt) bring something to the debate rather than do you best to get it shut down - again.
You are not being gas lighted - you should read up and see what is actually means. I've not lied to you either.
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you?
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So why did Alan respond at all - just to lie because he can't help himself? Stop gaslighting and (as Brompt) bring something to the debate rather than do you best to get it shut down - again.
You are not being gas lighted - you should read up and see what is actually means. I've not lied to you either.
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you?
No, I would not.
Can you explain what gas lighting means and in what it's occurred to you? I really can't see how but happy to see your explanation.
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Bromptonaut said:-
"Come on, spill the beans, who is in this cabal of billionaires?"
It wasn't difficult to find.
The ten richest green energy billionaires in 2021.
1 - Elon Musk $180.6 billion Tesla space-ex - USA (probably worth less today)
2 - Robin Zeng $31.5 Billion - lithium ion batteries - Hong Kong
3 - Huang Shilin $14.2 billion - lithium ion batteries - China
4 - Li Zhenguo $9.7 billion - solar wafers and modules - China
5 - Pei Zhenhua $ 8.3 biliion - lithium ion batteries - China
6 - Aloys Wobben $6.9 billion - wind turbines - Germany
7 - Denis Sverdlov $6.8 billion - electric vehicles - Russia
8 - He Xiaopeng $6.4 billion - electric vehicles - China
9 - Li Ping $6.4 billion - lithium ion batteries - China
10 - Lin Jianhua $ 6.0 billion - solar panel components - China
www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2021/04/22/the-1...3
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Here we go again. Trying to get the thread stopped by the mods like you did the other day when your side of the argument got show up once again as made of straw?
It might be useful if you actually made a genuinely constructive point for a change, one using actual facts. perhaps you should expand your reading list to more than just the Grauniad and BBC 'News'. You might learn something.
I have NEVER tried to get a thread closed. Rather, I am consistently hoping to further the discussion.
Given your previous posts I'm going to take a wild guess that one of the billionaires is Bill Gates. Further, a more neutral evaluation will show money being donated to anti global warming action.
The link to Natural Gas and boilers in the UK is, I'll wager, tenuous.
What alternative do you suggest to the Graun and BBC? I'm a regular reader of the Spectator's website and catch Times Radio's breakfast and drivetime shows as often as Today/PM.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 29/01/2023 at 16:02
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Here we go again. Trying to get the thread stopped by the mods like you did the other day when your side of the argument got show up once again as made of straw?
It might be useful if you actually made a genuinely constructive point for a change, one using actual facts. perhaps you should expand your reading list to more than just the Grauniad and BBC 'News'. You might learn something.
I have NEVER tried to get a thread closed. Rather, I am consistently hoping to further the discussion.
Given your previous posts I'm going to take a wild guess that one of the billionaires is Bill Gates. Further, a more neutral evaluation will show money being donated to anti global warming action.
So why ask a question you already knew the answer to, especially one on a (now closed) thread from 2 days or so ago you and others were asking similar worded questions at the same time so knew what the reponse was.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/165309/ev---charge...s
The link to Natural Gas and boilers in the UK is, I'll wager, tenuous.
Ok - how much? Bear in mind how many other similar things that were originally cast as 'ridiculous' (now aka as 'conspiracy theories), 'no plans for' (classic politico speak for yes but we won't admit it until you can't do anything to sotp it as we make it too difficult to stop it happening) only to be adopted as a 'fait accompli' not long after.
Shame you hadn't done this on other issues in the news over the past 3 or so years - I would've been able to afford a new car with my winnings.
What alternative do you suggest to the Graun and BBC? I'm a regular reader of the Spectator's website and catch Times Radio's breakfast and drivetime shows as often as Today/PM.
Sure you you pay to sub to the (MSM) conservative Speccie. Like the Telegraph (owned by the same people and share a lot of staff), which you haven't exactly liked over the years.
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I have to say I'd assumed that the leader of the canal was going to be Elon Musk, who is infinitely more sinister than Bill Gates.
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I have to say I'd assumed that the leader of the canal was going to be Elon Musk, who is infinitely more sinister than Bill Gates.
Yeah, all that commitment to freedom of speech and tranbsparency at Twitter rather than someone who wants to add vaccines into our food to 'overcome vaccine hesitancy' whilst buying up farmland (and at the same time pushing for us [not them] to eat ze bugz) and smiles with his wife whilst talking in an interview about supposedly the worst pandemic in 100 years.
Musk is, IMHO far from perfect.
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I have to say I'd assumed that the leader of the canal was going to be Elon Musk, who is infinitely more sinister than Bill Gates.
Yeah, all that commitment to freedom of speech and tranbsparency at Twitter
That's what he wants you to think he's doing - but he does not like it when someone uses it against him - he was quite happy to close down the Twitter of the person that was showing where his private jet was even though it is free info open to anyone.
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Gates wants to blanket the earth with particles or aerosols that blanket the sun's rays from reaching the earth.
There is no way back from that if it results in a worldwide freeze and famines.
He should be closely watched and confined if he goes further with that dangerous experiment.
Sinister? Yes.
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Gates wants to blanket the earth with particles or aerosols that blanket the sun's rays from reaching the earth.
There is no way back from that if it results in a worldwide freeze and famines.
He should be closely watched and confined if he goes further with that dangerous experiment.
Sinister? Yes.
Weird how he didn't make it into your list of people who are definitely Bond villains.
Anyway, what he actually wants to do (and is doing) is partly fund Harvard-led research into whether solar engineering is a good way to mitigate global warming or is likely to trigger something akin to a nuclear winter. That seems both useful and responsible to me.
Hate the man for making billions out of dodgy software and sharp practice, for having some kind of messiah complex or for being insufferably smug, but not because of things he hasn't done.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
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Most paying this way do not fully realise this
They do but not able to do anything about it.
Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
they should all be sacked for what good they are doing imo....
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Most paying this way do not fully realise this
They do but not able to do anything about it.
Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
they should all be sacked for what good they are doing imo....
Indeed - I would estimate that the number of actual decent, honourable and talented/useful politicians working in parliament (of both houses) is around 10% of the total, and likely more of them (percentage-wise) in the Lords and who were already there prior to 1997.
They are nowadays often (including by me) called WEF puppets, given the useless output of both Houses over the last 20 years, especially the last 5-10. A million monkeys randomly tapping at keyboards would've produced better laws / results, and for a lot less money.
None of the mainstream (as in all currently in parliament and in the devloved governments/parliaments) are any good either. They (almost) all need to go, including all their own lackies and party hacks. Politics has become a principle, courage and talent-free zone. No wonder the CCP, big business and their 'umbrella organisation' have decided to unilaterally take over world affairs.
What's a surprise to me how many 'normies' are still shrugging their shoulders and saying 'what can I do?' or just voting as they've done for the last several decades.
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How much does it cost to care for a million monkeys per year?
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How much does it cost to care for a million monkeys per year?
A lot less than 650 MPs and around 1000 Lords plus staff I'd imagine. No susidised 4 star restuarants and lavish flora in the atrium needed in Potcullis House for a start. Bear in mind that the likely bill to properly do up parliament will be in the order of £10Bn, possibly more.
Besides, they (the monkeys) don't need to be in the UK to do that 'work', do they?
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Well if the figure is not known, the rest of the statements collapse too.
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How much does it cost to care for a million monkeys per year?
A lot less than 650 MPs and around 1000 Lords plus staff I'd imagine. No susidised 4 star restuarants and lavish flora in the atrium needed in Potcullis House for a start. Bear in mind that the likely bill to properly do up parliament will be in the order of £10Bn, possibly more.
Besides, they (the monkeys) don't need to be in the UK to do that 'work', do they?
The cost of MPs and the house of lords is a drop in the ocean. I'm quite left wing but I really don't see why people keep bringing it up.
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<< They are nowadays often (including by me) called WEF puppets, given the useless output of both Houses over the last 20 years, especially the last 5-10. A million monkeys randomly tapping at keyboards would've produced better laws / results, and for a lot less money. >>
More opinionated and prejudiced twaddle. Everyone knows this old cliché is nonsense but it still returns occasionally. All MPs were elected by about half, maybe more, of the electorate, so to a degree it is their fault. Before that, of course, it was the fault of the local party admin for choosing the 'best' candidate. Recent events show that subset to be particularly myopic in choosing the next PM, until they finally made the most logical choice.
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<< They are nowadays often (including by me) called WEF puppets, given the useless output of both Houses over the last 20 years, especially the last 5-10. A million monkeys randomly tapping at keyboards would've produced better laws / results, and for a lot less money. >>
More opinionated and prejudiced twaddle. Everyone knows this old cliché is nonsense but it still returns occasionally.
In your opinion. Not fact. If 'everyone' knew it, why would I and many others (including on this forum) say this? Why is it that as time goes on, so many such 'conspiracy theories', especially if the last 3 years, are being proven correct and the 'consensus' (a political term which has zero to do with science) completely bogus?
All MPs were elected by about half, maybe more, of the electorate, so to a degree it is their fault. Before that, of course, it was the fault of the local party admin for choosing the 'best' candidate. Recent events show that subset to be particularly myopic in choosing the next PM, until they finally made the most logical choice.
As opposed to wonderous job Opposition parties have done on that score. This is why I said that ALL mainstream parties need toi be given the boot. Besides, if Boris has stuck to the original 2019 party manifesto and not succumbed to the woke, green ideology of his other half, plus been scared into / forced by senior colleague and the media into doing as he did on COVID, we might be in a far better position.
As regards Truss being PM, you have to wonder who organised the confected 'market crash' to outs her, given they hadn't even passed any laws that would've affected anyone. And in my view, those directly behind that 'palace coup' are having their strings pulled by the same lot I mentioned before.
The same lot who want the Plebs to freeze to death in order to keep the rich nicely toasty warm and pleb free on the roads and in the skies.
I sense that the twaddle is coming from your keyboard, not mine. Amazing how those previously pretending to support the poor and disadvantaged now do so for the uber rich and powerful elites, where we've just experienced the biggest transfer of wealth and power from us Plebs to them ever. One has to wonder why.
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<< I sense that the twaddle is coming from your keyboard, not mine. >>
Well, that is no surprise to me at all. Nuff said.
<< In your opinion. Not fact. >>
I was referring to the hoary old remark about monkeys at keyboards, which you may agree is a cliché and can hardly be claimed as 'fact' or opinion. It might offer a parallel in this discussion, but we won't go there. :-)
I can't help wondering how you claim to know so much 'fact' about what goes on behind the political scenes, which it seems very few others have an inkling about. You really should get yourself elected.
Edited by Andrew-T on 31/01/2023 at 17:23
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<< I sense that the twaddle is coming from your keyboard, not mine. >>
Well, that is no surprise to me at all. Nuff said.
Well it would, wouldn't it?
<< In your opinion. Not fact. >>
I was referring to the hoary old remark about monkeys at keyboards, which you may agree is a cliché and can hardly be claimed as 'fact' or opinion. It might offer a parallel in this discussion, but we won't go there. :-)
I was being ironic on that comment. ((facepalm)) It was showing how poor the crop of 21st Century politicians have been - on all sides. That you genuinely thought it was me trying to put across it as a 'verifiable fact'...well, oh dear.
I can't help wondering how you claim to know so much 'fact' about what goes on behind the political scenes, which it seems very few others have an inkling about. You really should get yourself elected.
Given your comments here and elsewher on current affairs, you don't appear to know what goes on in the real world, only what you are told by the mainstream media. Some of us actually worked relatively recently in the real world, including environments that involved national politics, so have more than a decent idea what really goes on.
That you appear to either blindly or deliberately, as well as uncritically believe 'The Message' leads me to think that perhaps you should refrain from putting yourself up for election. We have way to many of that type currently in parliament and town halls, and is why we are in the current parlous state we find ourselves in - both here and abroad.
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<< That you appear to either blindly or deliberately, as well as uncritically believe 'The Message' leads me to think that perhaps you should refrain from putting yourself up for election. We have way to many of that type currently in parliament and town halls, and is why we are in the current parlous state we find ourselves in - both here and abroad. >>
I wonder how you calculate my level of criticism or acceptance of this fabled 'Message'. I am a Times reader and watch some TV, but I don't usually put my feelings into long rants about it, there are better things to do. I don't vote Labour or Tory unless there is no better alternative.
You will be glad to know that I have never had any intention to get myself elected, and have no plan to change that habit. But because of your clearly extensive knowledge of how (you imagine) the real world works, I thought you might be an ideal candidate to prevent all the chicanery you object to. But nowhere near my constituency, please.
Edited by Andrew-T on 31/01/2023 at 23:20
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The MRLP?
Given how bad the current mainstream lot are, you wouldn't notice much difference other than likely a bit more honesty.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
I think most people know prepayment meters cost more - that's why most people don't want them.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
I think most people know prepayment meters cost more - that's why most people don't want them.
you miss the point, millions without the means to pay or pay by direct debit are being forced into paying up to £5 per week for these meters. I hardly think that it costs the energy suppliers anything like this. It is high time the playing field was levelled not expecting the poor to pay more,
Also today it has been disclosed that when the gird is in high demand and asking for additional gas power the gas power stations are charging a very high premium on the gas. The owners of these gas stations seem to have the grid by the short and curlies as they have no where else to go. Another reason why we are all paying a high price
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Lets try again. It's nothing to do with the people that own power stations.
A nice man called Vladimir has invaded Ukraine. Everyone got very cross and now won't sell anything to him. Because he can't things, Vladimir has decided not to sell gas to Europe.
A very rich country called Norway has plenty of gas for sale so is selling it to everyone that used to buy from Vladimir. Because everyone wants their gas and they don't have an infinite amount. Norway has increased the price of gas.
Some countries had lots of gas stored up for winter, but the UK didn't because it thought Vladimir was nice and would keep selling cheap gas for ever. That means the UK has no choice but to buy expensive gas from Norway. Sad faces all round.
The best way to make sure this never happens again is to use renewable energy. Renewable means that you only have to buy and maintain the equipment and you never have to buy fuel from mean old Vladimir or money bags Norway again.
Lots of people have suggested renewable energy would be a good idea for a long time. Lots of other people don't like new things and have suddenly developed an interest in bird watching so have said "No no no". That means we still need gas and have to pay whatever Norway wants.
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"""The best way to make sure this never happens again is to use renewable energy. Renewable means that you only have to buy and maintain the equipment and you never have to buy fuel from mean old Vladimir or money bags Norway again.
I agree, But what happens when the wind does not blow for days on end or in winter you hardly see the sun for days if not weeks. Yes the gas is available in the UK and their is a price that gas power stations are charging. However when the grid is ""struggling" and has to call on extra demand then it is paying a very high price for this top up.
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I agree, But what happens when the wind does not blow for days on end or in winter you hardly see the sun for days if not weeks. Yes the gas is available in the UK and their is a price that gas power stations are charging. However when the grid is ""struggling" and has to call on extra demand then it is paying a very high price for this top up.
Why do people think that 'when the wind does not blow' is some sort of trump card?
Any renewables plan dependent on wind/solar needs backup. That could be natural gas, the price has fallen again after the market began re-jigging to accommodate the loss of supply from Russia or it could be something else. Hydrogen?
Gas has the advantage the generating stations using it can be started quickly and it can be stored either off-shore (eg the Rough Facility) or in our few remaining gasometers. Given the political will and investment more storage can be brought on line.
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With regard to meters does anyone recall the old coin meters pre decimalisation. They were usually under the stairs. The gas was fed using old pennies when there we 240 of them to a pound and a penny bought you a lot of gas. Similarly the electric was a shilling in the meter and when the money ran out you had no supply either left in the dark or no cooker. There was often a scramble to feed the meter in the dark. Each utility had a meter man who used to visit to empty the meter. He would count and bag the cash and if you were lucky you had a few coins back as a rebate.. He would then struggle off with a bag full of coins to the neighbours. These were the days when a single utility in your area would be your supplier, non of this jumping supplier and tariff nonsense. A few pence a day would be all you needed now you are lucky if you pay less than £10 a day.
In the old days off gas and coal fires there was a fiercesome thing called a gas poker. You would use it to start the coal fire to give it some umph It was a short tube with holes either side and a handle. You would shove it under the the kindling and light it.
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With regard to meters does anyone recall the old coin meters pre decimalisation. They were usually under the stairs.
In 1981/2 I lived in a shared flat. The gas meter was in the kitchen and took 50p coins. As we only used gas for cooking 50p lasted a long time.
The electric meter was under the stairs but the access to the understair cubby was in someone's bedroom. Had to creep in there (we were an all male share) more than once after the lights went out later in the evening. The room's occupant was on flexi-time and started work by Tower Bridge at 07:30 so retired correspondingly early as well.
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With regard to meters does anyone recall the old coin meters pre decimalisation. They were usually under the stairs.
In 1981/2 I lived in a shared flat. The gas meter was in the kitchen and took 50p coins. As we only used gas for cooking 50p lasted a long time.
The electric meter was under the stairs but the access to the understair cubby was in someone's bedroom. Had to creep in there (we were an all male share) more than once after the lights went out later in the evening. The room's occupant was on flexi-time and started work by Tower Bridge at 07:30 so retired correspondingly early as well.
In the 60s I had a bedsitter in London. The landlady had installed coin meters in every room and had tuned them up so that the disk went round at hyper speed and your money lasted no time at all.
Gas pokers - I remember them and also coal fires where sometimes there would be a detonator left in the coal and you would suddenly get a huge bang in your fire. Later on we lived in the country and had a wood burning stove. Fine when you had lots of good dry wood. Not so good when the wood was a bit green. If it didn't light up but just smouldered you could put a heat gun to the air vent and that would really get it going. Wood stoves heated you twice. Once when you burnt it and the second time when you were out in the back garden chopping logs. And don't take shortcuts and use soft wood because it is easy to chop. It doesn't burn hot and it leaves creosote to block up your chimney. You need hard wood.
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In the old days off gas and coal fires there was a fiercesome thing called a gas poker. You would use it to start the coal fire to give it some umph It was a short tube with holes either side and a handle. You would shove it under the the kindling and light it.
we never had such luxuries, outside 5 -6am chopping up wood to start the coke fired boiler and the same again for the front room coal fire, if damp they took ages for the flame to take on whatever newspaper or kindling you could find, never had a gas poker, though my grandparents did and never had problems with damp wood
our dining room electric wall fire was too expensive to use and took an age to heat up when it was used, didn`t have double glazing then and even the window sill froze during the winter, surprising what you remember as a child
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However when the grid is ""struggling"
I suspect it will carry on struggling for years to come as we get more EVs on the road, and renewables are not being made fast enough to cover the amount of electricity we will need, come to that the cables wont be capable either so more power reductions will be needed over the years to cope....
looks like its going to be a messy transition to all EV cars.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
I think most people know prepayment meters cost more - that's why most people don't want them.
I can remember 50p electricity prepay meters used in holiday camps. 50p didn't get much either, and that was nigh on 40 years ago. All they seem to do nowadays is say that 'electricity (and other things, like towels) is included' in the price, but all they've done is bump the rental prices up a LOT.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
I think most people know prepayment meters cost more - that's why most people don't want them.
Some years ago, after thicko me had discovered BG had been ripping me off for years on the highest energy rate possible...more fool me, but they along with other such operators will never see another penny of my hard earned...i discovered Ebico, an non profit Christian company who got into the power supply game to provide those on pre payments etc the same rate as those, like me/us, slightly better off who qualify for direct debits etc.
Ebico was moved to another provider some time later and i eventually moved on from them anyway, whether they still operate under the same ethos i don't know but if anyone here knows people on pre pay meters it might be worth investigating.
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I read today that the people on prepayment meters and those not paying by direct debit are paying up to £254 per annum on top their fuel bills It is a stealth charge and hidden somewhere in there bill. Most paying this way do not fully realise this and Ofgem say they are allowing this to go on for the next 2 years. Meanwhile in parliament all their time is taken up with who should be sacked next.
I think most people know prepayment meters cost more - that's why most people don't want them.
Some years ago, after thicko me had discovered BG had been ripping me off for years on the highest energy rate possible...more fool me, but they along with other such operators will never see another penny of my hard earned...i discovered Ebico, an non profit Christian company who got into the power supply game to provide those on pre payments etc the same rate as those, like me/us, slightly better off who qualify for direct debits etc.
Ebico was moved to another provider some time later and i eventually moved on from them anyway, whether they still operate under the same ethos i don't know but if anyone here knows people on pre pay meters it might be worth investigating.
Strangely BG was the company that bought them.
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National Grid were offering consumers another chance to save up to £20 last night between 5.30 and 6.30 pm.. I would think that the cost of electric alone is more than enough incentive to switch off. However as the Grid continues to struggle one wonders if prices will ever reduce
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National Grid were offering consumers another chance to save up to £20 last night between 5.30 and 6.30 pm.. I would think that the cost of electric alone is more than enough incentive to switch off. However as the Grid continues to struggle one wonders if prices will ever reduce
Given it's not that cold at the moment, you have to wonder why.
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Reported in most of the papers today and the BBC website an outfit called the Carbon Tracker Initiative state that the variable cost of generating electric is being ignored. The costs of solar and wind are a lot less than Gas. Gas only accounts for some 40% but it is the higher price of gas that is ultimately passed om to the consumer. The CTI reckon some £7.2 billion has been overcharged in the last 2 years equivalent to £250 per household. If this is fact it suggests that consumer body Ofgem is just not doing its job
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Reported in most of the papers today and the BBC website an outfit called the Carbon Tracker Initiative state that the variable cost of generating electric is being ignored. The costs of solar and wind are a lot less than Gas. Gas only accounts for some 40% but it is the higher price of gas that is ultimately passed om to the consumer. The CTI reckon some £7.2 billion has been overcharged in the last 2 years equivalent to £250 per household. If this is fact it suggests that consumer body Ofgem is just not doing its job
I'm sure I have read about this as well - have found the article about it:
Electricity prices dictated by gas producers who provide less than half of UK electricity | UCL News - UCL – University College London
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National Grid were offering consumers another chance to save up to £20 last night between 5.30 and 6.30 pm.. I would think that the cost of electric alone is more than enough incentive to switch off. However as the Grid continues to struggle one wonders if prices will ever reduce
Are you sure the £20 refers to one night? There is no way any normal household can get through £20 worth of electricity in 1 hour. Or is this some kind of £20 bonus for not using the power at that time?
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The grid does say up to £20. I suppose if you lived in Chelsea with a gym and swimming pool as part of your mansion then £20 would be small potatoes. Probably costs £20 per hour to run some peoples houses
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I am sure that you have read about British Gas breaking into peoples homes to fit prepayment meters and then charging them a lot more to supply gas than a customer on DD. The CEO claims to not know the practice was going on. Not good for him and not good in a civilised society. I am sure that BG have customers who will not pay but for the genuine ones who cannot pay it is a real hardship. The CEO has rightfully suspended unlawful entry.
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I am sure that you have read about British Gas breaking into peoples homes to fit prepayment meters and then charging them a lot more to supply gas than a customer on DD. The CEO claims to not know the practice was going on. Not good for him and not good in a civilised society.
I agree with these sentiments, but what is the appropriate response for all these 'vulnerable' gas users ? They can't really be entitled to free gas, at least not in the long term, so what would be the correct course of action ?
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I am sure that you have read about British Gas breaking into peoples homes to fit prepayment meters and then charging them a lot more to supply gas than a customer on DD. The CEO claims to not know the practice was going on. Not good for him and not good in a civilised society.
I agree with these sentiments, but what is the appropriate response for all these 'vulnerable' gas users ? They can't really be entitled to free gas, at least not in the long term, so what would be the correct course of action ?
Why not? Especially if we still publicly owned our utilities, it would be simple enough to let people use them for free. It would be a lot cheaper and more efficient than paying them benefit, then having them pay the utility company.
Of course there is an argument that people will then use things excessively. A monthly free cap based on EPC would get around that. Indeed, the Government would then have an incentive to improve efficiency of people's homes, in order to improve the EPC score and reduce the benefit bill.
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"""I agree with these sentiments, but what is the appropriate response for all these 'vulnerable' gas users ? They can't really be entitled to free gas, at least not in the long term, so what would be the correct course of action ?"""
Well there is no incentive for many to work these days. Rishi is targeting the wrong age group going for the oldies to go back to work as probably not worth it for most as they only get clobbered with tax and NI.. The freezing of the tax allowance further favours the lazy to not look for work and does no favours for the workers
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