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<< imagine if Hillary Clinton won in 2016 - we'd have had mushroom clouds over most of the world's cities by now, if Sanders were in office, America would now be part of a new USSR, and if Biden were, well, who knows what a senile creepy guy like him would do? >>
I think (hope) those are fairly barmy suggestions, but I agree that the Democrats still can't come up with a half-likely opponent for the daftest president the US has had for a very long time. We thought GWB was daft enough, but he was Trumped, without a doubt.
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<< imagine if Hillary Clinton won in 2016 - we'd have had mushroom clouds over most of the world's cities by now, if Sanders were in office, America would now be part of a new USSR, and if Biden were, well, who knows what a senile creepy guy like him would do? >>
I think (hope) those are fairly barmy suggestions, but I agree that the Democrats still can't come up with a half-likely opponent for the daftest president the US has had for a very long time. We thought GWB was daft enough, but he was Trumped, without a doubt.
I see what you did there lol
Edited by dan86 on 24/04/2020 at 13:21
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"Actually he didn't say inject yourselves with disinfectant. Most of the UK media is parroting the line essentially word-for-word from the Trump-hating MSNBC and CNN., not from the man himself."
"By injection inside, almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and does the job and does a tremendous number on the lungs..."
That, it seems, is an accurate transcription of the idiot's words. If he didn't mean injection with disinfectant I don't know what he meant. He loves to appear an expert in everything, but continually exposes his intellectual deficiencies.
"... if Sanders were in office, America would now be part of a new USSR..."
This sounds like the same idiotic, over-stated comments that characterise the whole pro-Trump camp. In effect it says if you don't like Trump look how bad the alternatives are or were - hardly a ringing endorsement for Trump himself.
I'm quite disappointed that Andy is coming up with all this threadbare stuff.
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Like it or lump it, I have worked with lots of Americans. Like other nations they are varied and disparate. The red necks just live in La La land, out and out Republican but they can't explain why. The northern states are are more moderate and more articulate. Between these two groups there is little common ground, other than the gun laws and a belief that the military can solve every situation. The red necks seem to outnumber the others and a gung-ho chap like Trump is right up their collective alley. Apart from his appalling ignorance of many subjects especially foreign policy, the majority of his electorate are only vaguely aware that there is a world beyond their borders, but it doesn't matter much. The price they pay for supreme isolation from Europe and Asia and Africa. Only 18% of Americans have a passport, fewer than that actually use them beyond them their immediate borders. As long as there economy drifts along and they can eat, drink and drive cheaply they care little. Luckily Trump is not as all powerful as he portrays. There are some very clever minds behind the Presidency that exercise a calming effect and manage to smother most of his ridiculous ideas. Likewise the military, he is the C in C but has to have a consensus to act so there are checks and balances to his power. Hopefully they will elect a more sensible person in November. Which way is SLO betting?
Cheers Concrete
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Methinks you lot are taking President Trump a little too literally and seriously, just as he wants.
The Dems can't find anyone, except some bod losing his marbles (wonder who trhe running mate will be, ready to take over soonest), to hope to defeat Trump in the coming election.
Trump is called all sorts of names, haven't you lot twigged yet he's the worlds best troll, makes statements he plucks from his backside for the sheer hell of it, no one with an ounce of common sense takes things like the disinfectant story seriously, but while everyone's running round calling him names and getting in a lather about nothing, oh and more calls for impeachment, he's dozens of steps ahead planning his November victory.
I can't wait to be truthful, will be watching and enjoying the elite's chins hit the floor and their legion of acolytes and general snowflakes bursting into tears and screaming blue murder, then there'll be CNN and other failing network's talking heads rehashing the same cobblers as 4 years ago, course there'll be the standard violent demonstrations where the usual suspects smash their own towns up in frustration.
Is he the most dangerous man on earth, no, he's stopping another bought and paid for professional politician from fronting for big business/pharma/arms, more power to his elbow.
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Have I got this right? You're saying we shouldn't take Trump seriously with all his ridiculous embarrassing news conferences (and presumably all his lies), but we should take him seriously because it's all a distraction while he plans his re-election campaign.
That is ridiculous. His desperate desire to be popular and his weak intellect are too convincing to be anything other than real. Most likely he's too stupid to realise how stupid he is.
And as for saying Trump's re-election would stop "another bought and paid for professional politician" from benefiting from business deals - perhaps you ought to check how well Trump's business enterprises have done since he became president. It is an unfortunate fact that USA politics is all about money - it is what really impresses Americans. How shallow that is.
Apparently you wish all power to Trump's elbow. Oh dear. Really? The world needs Trump like a bullet to the head - or a shot of disinfectant.
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Is he the most dangerous man on earth, no, he's stopping another bought and paid for professional politician from fronting for big business/pharma/arms, more power to his elbow.
Donald Trump is a billionaire big business owner - he's already fronting big business.
He appeals to people that just see what it outside their own front doors and believe that is the whole world. He does not have their best interests at heart - and has cone nothing for them. Yet they vote for him as they hear him saying the things they want to hear and think he is sticking to the establishment - when in fact he isn't. He's part of the establishment and this is his act which people fall for.
He states things that aren't true, does not answer questions, just shouts fake news - he's dangerous because people will see him as 'normal' and he is far from that.
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... no one with an ounce of common sense takes things like the disinfectant story seriously, ...
Maybe. But there are loads of people that fail to match that description - what do they do ?
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Maybe. But there are loads of people that fail to match that description - what do they do ?
Stop reading and watching the biased to the left mainstream media propaganda would be a start, perfect examples of which are CNN and very our own state broadcaster, the one we are forced to pay for if we use a television to receive from anyone but them, should be renamed Pravda.
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<< our own state broadcaster, the one we are forced to pay for if we use a television to receive from anyone but them, should be renamed Pravda. >>
That's a joke, but I don't think it was meant as one. You should try living with the real Pravda to learn the difference. I haven't, but my niece has, and back in the 60s our neighbours were staunch communists until they visited Russia and found what actual communism was like.
I judge Trump from the way he appears to me on TV. There are limits on how much that appearance can be manipulated as you are suggesting, GB. Since before he was elected he has come across as a loudmouthed, opinionated, muddle-headed buffoon. He believes running a superpower is just like running a big company - hire and fire. 'Statesmanship' doesn't come into it. Get rid.
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"Stop reading and watching the biased to the left mainstream media propaganda would be a start, perfect examples of which are CNN and very our own state broadcaster, the one we are forced to pay for if we use a television to receive from anyone but them, should be renamed Pravda."
This sort of comment always amuses me. From time to to time we have right-wing politicians criticising the BBC for being biased towards the left, and then we get left-wing politicians saying how it's distorting the news and is clearly favouring the right.
Which leads me to believe the BBC has got it about right.
And the idea that the BBC (like Pravda in communist Russia) is a mere propaganda tool whose whole content is dictated or at least vetted by a totalitarian socialist government is ludicrous.
For a start, we don't have a socialist government.
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"Stop reading and watching the biased to the left mainstream media propaganda would be a start, perfect examples of which are CNN and very our own state broadcaster, the one we are forced to pay for if we use a television to receive from anyone but them, should be renamed Pravda."
This sort of comment always amuses me. From time to to time we have right-wing politicians criticising the BBC for being biased towards the left, and then we get left-wing politicians saying how it's distorting the news and is clearly favouring the right.
Which leads me to believe the BBC has got it about right.
And the idea that the BBC (like Pravda in communist Russia) is a mere propaganda tool whose whole content is dictated or at least vetted by a totalitarian socialist government is ludicrous.
For a start, we don't have a socialist government.
We may not have a socialist government, but most Universities and many schools have a left wing culture, including "no platforming" anyone whose views are not politically correct.
This is in many ways worse than a socialist government (which could in time be voted out), as the attitudes and beliefs of the younger generation may be slanted so that we end up with perpetual socialist governments.
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Indeed, and, to placate FP and others taking the UK media's parroting at their word, why not check what (left of centre journalist/commentator) Tim Pool has said in the last 24 hours.
He himself admitted being suckered in by the initial reporting, then realised when people put reasoned arguments to him that this was nowhere near as bad as the media have made it out to be.
Note that I am NOT endorsing Trump generally, but that he hos the best of a very bad bunch of politicians on offer from both sides in the US. As GB says, the MSM and Establishment needed to be called out generally for their attitude and lies over the past few years.
People may not agree with his tone, but he has achieved quite a bit for his voter base compared to his predecessor who essentially had an 'open goal' and a free ride from the vast majority of the media and their civil service throughout his tenure.
Tim's commentary on the subject (2 videos) can be found on his YouTube channel 'Timcast' (he has more than one channel).
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"... to placate FP and others taking the UK media's parroting at their word..."
I never said that, nor do I believe that. You're putting words into my mouth.
As regards the "disinfectant" reporting, all you have to do is ignore the media comments and listen to Trump's words.
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"... to placate FP and others taking the UK media's parroting at their word..."
I never said that, nor do I believe that. You're putting words into my mouth.
As regards the "disinfectant" reporting, all you have to do is ignore the media comments and listen to Trump's words.
I have, an he's being his usual hyperbolic self. Everyone knows he does this and takes that into account when he speaks.
If people who would not support him like Pool think that the media's reaction is way overblown (as usual), then I'm inclined to agree, given he has absolutely zero incentive to praise the man.
That whilst he was trying to close the US to people coming in, the Democratic party top people, including their Senate and Lower House leaders and the Govenor and Mayor of NY, were advocating for the US to stay open and embrace Chinese New Year undoubtedly led to several thousand, maybe tens of thousands more COVID-19 related deaths in New York and around the country more generally.
They sound more dangerous than Trump at the moment. People need to get over 2016 (on every front) and take their red pill to rid themselves of Trump Derrangement Syndrome and get on with their lives. Trump didn't cuase (or make worse) COVID-19, China did. Chy-na.
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Note that I am NOT endorsing Trump generally, but that he was the best of a very bad bunch of politicians on offer from both sides in the US.
When Trump was elected he wasn't a 'politician' at all, just a millionaire businessman who inherited most of it from his father. I hoped that he might become a politician after a year or two's on-the-job training, but my expectations were fulfilled - he didn't and won't. He just can't break his habit of getting foot in mouth before speaking. I don't believe that is part of a cunning plan either.
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Among the comments above President Trump is decribed as or accused of being...mad, daft, buffoon, daftest and finally stupid.
Remind me how he must be all of those things when he's managed to make himself one of the worlds richest men and despite the worlds media elites and disciples all being against him, somehow this businessman managed to get himself elected as President of the United States and he's very likely to be re-elected later this year, but he's the stupid one here?
Thankfully he is a businessman, i and many others have had enough of politicians throughout our lives and no doubt millions of Americans who actualy graft for a living felt exactly the same, i don't want to to be told bedtime stories some spin doctor thinks sounds right on, or to be lectured on the chosen crusade of the moment by a troubled child, i've had a bellyful of the lot of them and fervently wish we had our very own Trump, sadly with the statutory two party state in Britain that can never happen, you should be pleased.
Edited by gordonbennet on 25/04/2020 at 19:21
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It is perfectly true that one of the things that resonates with a big section of American voters is the idea that Trump is an anti-politician - all this stuff about "draining the swamp" (that we never actually see any evidence of) is part of that narrative.
They love a millionaire anyway, but one who has no prior experience of politics - to us and to anyone with any common sense a handicap - is seen by his supporters as an asset.
Lots of Americans are millionaires - it's a sign of success and status. It's not necessarily proof of hard work or intelligence. Trump inherited a lot of money for a start.
Trump is intellectually, morally and emotionally challenged, as has been evidenced over and over again. That does not prevent him from being street-wise when it comes to dealing with the voters and he certainly knows how to press his supporters' buttons - in fact, that is his default setting whenever he feels threatened.
The fact that Trump got himself elected is as much evidence of the mind-set of the people who voted him in as of the guy himself. Generally people get the politicians they deserve.
Yes, he was elected in the face of derision by pretty much everyone apart from his supporters. But that feeds nicely into the narrative. He's a victim struggling valiantly against the odds - there never was a president so maligned and it's all sooooo unfair.
The last thing this country needs is a British Trump. Johnson's apparent wish to cosy up to him is bad enough. It's not the two-party system that prevents your messiah from appearing - it's the British public, most of whom, like the people from most countries outside America, cannot stand the man. Put simply, he wouldn't have a chance amongst the UK voters - thank God.
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.. i've had a bellyful of the lot of them and fervently wish we had our very own Trump, sadly with the statutory two party state in Britain that can never happen, you should be pleased.
Come on, GB, the US is much more a two-party state than the UK - I can't recall anything else standing for president since Ross Perot, way back. That's why American elections are the same as their football matches, cheer leaders and the rest. Donkeys and elephants are pretty good symbols really. I'm glad Boris is shaping up to be less of a Trump than I thought he might.
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.Come on, GB, the US is much more a two-party state than the UK - I can't recall anything else standing for president since Ross Perot, way back.
Ross Perot was 92?. I remember the late great Alistair Cooke in one of his 'Letters from America relating how he'd misheard and thought for a moment someone named Prospero was standing. Perot stood again in 1996.
There is also an argument that it was third party candidate Ralph Nader who handed 2000 to GW Bush as the small number of votes he got were likely to have been abstracted from Gore rather than Bush. That theory is though doubted by some.
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Thankfully he is a businessman, i and many others have had enough of politicians throughout our lives and no doubt millions of Americans who actualy graft for a living felt exactly the same, i don't want to to be told bedtime stories some spin doctor thinks sounds right on, or to be lectured on the chosen crusade of the moment by a troubled child, i've had a bellyful of the lot of them and fervently wish we had our very own Trump, sadly with the statutory two party state in Britain that can never happen, you should be pleased.
Trump tells bedtime stories all the time - he constantly says one thing and then another and makes out that he right no matter what he has said.
What has he actually done for the general voter?
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Note that I am NOT endorsing Trump generally, but that he hos the best of a very bad bunch of politicians on offer from both sides in the US. As GB says, the MSM and Establishment needed to be called out generally for their attitude and lies over the past few years.
So the media and the 'establishment' put out lies...Trump does the same - where is the difference?
Can you give some examples of what Trump has done for his voter base?
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<< Can you give some examples of what Trump has done for his voter base? >>
Made them feel better - their team won !!
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Note that I am NOT endorsing Trump generally, but that he hos the best of a very bad bunch of politicians on offer from both sides in the US. As GB says, the MSM and Establishment needed to be called out generally for their attitude and lies over the past few years.
So the media and the 'establishment' put out lies...Trump does the same - where is the difference?
Can you give some examples of what Trump has done for his voter base?
Built the wall and reduced both legal and especially illegal immigration;
Brought jobs back to the US and stopped many being moved to cheaper nations;
Thus, before COVID-19, the economy had been booming, with unemployment at its lowest for decades, especially in the ethnic minority communities as well as the forgotten 'rust belt' states and general blue collar workers accross the US, where his voter base mainly is.
He stood up to the Washington elites and MSM, rather like is now going on in the UK with the Civil Service and media here, who are heavily biased towards the political Left, corporatism, and against democracy.
Why do you think that the same left-wing MSM have been helping their Democratic Party chums by going nuts on Orange Man Bad on Ukrainegate (lies, actually Biden's problem), Russiagate 1 & 2 (lies), now Chinagate (yet more lies) and trying to use them and false allegations to impeach him, none of which stood up to any scrutiny?
All the while those same news outlets cover up the Dem's leadership calling Trump's shutting down of the broders a couple of months ago as 'racist' and wanting the US to stay open for Chinese New year, contrubuting to much of NYC's problems now, Biden's serious mental health concerns, his creepy behaviour towards women and young girls (to say the least) over several decades, Sanders own health problems and hardline socialist tendancies as well as lack of firm leadership (regularly being pushed aside at rallies by even more left wing protesters) and the woke, nutty leftist policies of his colleagues in congress.
All the while, many in their media (and ours) take Chinese money in return for their silence on their overwhelming culpability in the pandemic. The same goes for academia (some of whom have been shown to regularly pass on trade secrets to the Chinese paymasters/ideological friends) and the entertainment industry, who run the Orange Man Bad network hand-in-glove with the news media.
Good enough?
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<< Good enough? >>
Well, I suppose it might be if you (a) believe it all and (b) consider it is the full picture.
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<< Good enough? >>
Well, I suppose it might be if you (a) believe it all and (b) consider it is the full picture.
I didn't say everything he does is magic (sorry, Sting), but just that he's by far not the evil man many on the political Left portray him to be.
I forgot to add to the List that he (in under a year) renegotiated NAFTA agreement in the US's favour, which would also significantly benefit his voter base, which it has shown to have done.
He has also given many other NATO members a kick up the backside for not spending their promised 2% on defence with the US picking up most of the slack. They are slowly having to increase their spending in that regard because he threatened to ditch them.
For way too long, many European nations have got essentially free security from the Americans, helping them benefit significantly from being able to spend more in other areas of theri economy. This was fine when they were rebuilding after WWII, but not since the 1970s/80s for most of Western Europe, and will soon be for some of the former Soiviet bloc countries as well.
He's right that they should all pull their weight more in multual defence. I don't recall any of his predecessors (especially his direct predecessor) or political rivals on the other side of the aisle saying as much, despite it being 100% true.
He's a far from perfect President, but a lot of the criticism is of his bombastic style when speaking in public (which the US public appears to know and take into account, for the very most part [unlike the media, who takes everything literally like little children]), which appears to be much 'worse' than his actions behind the scenes, especially with what has been achieved thus far.
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<< He has also given many other NATO members a kick up the backside for not spending their promised 2% on defence with the US picking up most of the slack. They are slowly having to increase their spending in that regard because he threatened to ditch them. >>
But he has threatened to ditch the WHO, which is hardly the astutest thing to do just at the moment.
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<< He has also given many other NATO members a kick up the backside for not spending their promised 2% on defence with the US picking up most of the slack. They are slowly having to increase their spending in that regard because he threatened to ditch them. >>
But he has threatened to ditch the WHO, which is hardly the astutest thing to do just at the moment.
Scientists from Taiwan informed the WHO as early as December 31 about the human to human transmission of the Chinese Virus from Wuhan but not only did WHO suppress this information, it continued peddling the lie that it doesn't spread from human to human.
The vice-president of Taiwan is a leading epidemiologist so it can be assumed that they do know what they are talking about, as events have proved.
Since the crisis unfolded, it seems Beijing is steering the WHO, which was so far known as an independent organization. Many experts believe that China has so much influence over the WHO because of its funding.
As Donald Trump, not being a politician, expects results from USA funding of organisations such as the WHO, it's difficult to criticise his withdrawal of the funding.
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"... a lot of the criticism is of his bombastic style when speaking in public (which the US public appears to know and take into account, for the very most part [unlike the media, who takes everything literally like little children])..."
It isn't bombast. It's inarticulate, ill-informed, immature, petulant, foot-in-mouth stuff. Those parts of the American public determined to support him will of course find ways of diverting attention from what he says or pretend he didn't say it.
As for the media being childish for taking what he says literally - do you realise how ridiculous that sounds? That they should be "mature" enough to "interpret" what he says and make it sound better than what it is? Why on earth is that their job?
The trouble is that Trump has lowered the bar so far that people have started to accept his verbal dross as the new normal. And that is very disturbing.
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Built the wall and reduced both legal and especially illegal immigration;
Not so. At best some existing infrastructure has been replaced and a small length added. Nothing close to what he promised.
Brought jobs back to the US and stopped many being moved to cheaper nations;
I'm not sure it looks like that in the USA where tariffs have increased cost of steel.
Why do you think that the same left-wing MSM have been helping their Democratic Party chums by going nuts on Orange Man Bad on Ukrainegate (lies, actually Biden's problem),
The lie, albeit by ommission is that Biden opposed corruption inquiries; the truth is that he opposed an inquiry that would simply cover up for the corruption.
Russiagate 1 & 2 (lies), now Chinagate (yet more lies) and trying to use them and false allegations to impeach him, none of which stood up to any scrutiny?
Nonsense. If the Republicans hadn't protected him by the senate majority and denying a proper trial he'd likely have been convicted.
All the while those same news outlets cover up the Dem's leadership calling Trump's shutting down of the broders a couple of months ago as 'racist' and wanting the US to stay open for Chinese New year, contrubuting to much of NYC's problems now, Biden's serious mental health concerns, his creepy behaviour towards women and young girls (to say the least) over several decades, Sanders own health problems and hardline socialist tendancies as well as lack of firm leadership (regularly being pushed aside at rallies by even more left wing protesters) and the woke, nutty leftist policies of his colleagues in congress.
You use of words like woke tell us all we need to know,
Good enough?
In a word No.
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So it seems but for one poster who totally supports Trump and another who has some sympathy for him the remainder see him for what he is, a total loony who is probably dangerous as well.
What concerns me most about Donald and Boris is the UK are getting ever closer to crashing out of the EU with no deal in place and if Donald offers Boris a "tremendous" deal he may well accept it without really thinking it through beyond getting him past the next few difficult years. To give Donald any power over the UK would be treason IMHO, we may have voted Boris into power (I didn't) but we did not give him a vote to replace the EU with the USA.
Its a shocking mess when a nation the size of the USA can only offer Donald and a few lacklustre Democrats as potential Presidents. They have had some bad ones but never this bad.
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Its a shocking mess when a nation the size of the USA can only offer Donald and a few lacklustre Democrats as potential Presidents. They have had some bad ones but never this bad.
Having worked in the US I can state that the US is not our true ally. Most "educated" business people that I was working with did not even know who the UK were or where we were or even how wealthy we were.
We are sort of united by language but they are much close in outlook to South American countries than to European ones.
Even dealing with professionals, I found racism and bigotry very worrying.
I have dealt with US companies taking over UK companies. It's not pretty. You really have to wonder what is going on when the installed MD of a US company who just purchased a UK bank's division picked up a ringing customer helpline phone and told the caller to "Feck off and find another bank" without even bothering to find out who the caller was!
The US will get what they can from us and spit what they don't want in to the Atlantic.
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In addition to my post above.
When I travelled to the US our laptops were regularly taken away to be examined at customs. We also had to give passwords etc.
We were working on some large value lends at good margins and taking some valuable and profitable custom from some large US banks.
We tended to travel out on a weekend and acclimatise for a couple of days with our local colleagues before meetings customers on Wednesday and Thursdays.
We found more than one customer totally bored with our presentations. It was an astonishing package, not done before and so asked them why they were not impressed.
One of our customers showed us copies of slides they were presented to them in the days before our visit - they were identical to ours save for logo and rates when they didn't even offer that product! They hadn't even corrected some of our spellings.
After that we never took laptops again but purchased one in BestBuy on arrival and our presentations were hidden on 80gb ipods, disguised as music tracks. Before leaving we purchased a grinder and shredded the laptop in the hotel room! We never had the problem again.
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https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1254477490678104064
The man cannot tell the truth! He claims to have launched the hospital ship Comfort, but this was launched decades before he was president!
He did visit it but its not the same as launching it!
And he's confusing Nobel (his spelling Noble) with Pulitzer prizes and demanding they be withdrawn. He has no authority over the process.
He also claims he hasn't left the White House in many months - all lies.
Golf, 4th, 5th, 18th January, 1st, 2nd, 15th February, 7th and 8th March.
Election fundraisers / rally on several occasions.
Daytona 500, Football etc.
And then he supports people protesting the lock-down, knowing that it will likely lead to more deaths and is against the advice of nearly every other world leader.
The man is a psychopath.
Edited by Zippy123 on 27/04/2020 at 00:05
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<< The man cannot tell the truth! >>
I think that is the proof that DT will never become a true 'politician' - those are usually economical with truth. DT is merely generous with non-truth.
<< The man is a psychopath >>
I'm not sure I would go quite that far !
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BBC news report this morning had some american saying that Trump was just thinking out loud with his disinfectant piece. The guy on the news report then went on to say we all know Trump doesn't tell the truth all the time.
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I presume the American in question was attempting to defend Trump.
If so, what an appalling defence! If Trump's real thoughts ("thinking out loud") are reflected in his words, this shows his true ignorance about medical matters.
If "we all know Trump doesn't tell the truth all the time" is meant in some way to excuse what he said, what a dreadful admission this is of how low his moral standards have got and how far his supporters accept that.
However, I didn't hear the broadcast so I can't be certain.
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The message I'm getting here is, politicians are not to be trusted so it's refreshing to have a narcissistic, psychopathic, uneducated, misogynistic, demented person with an unsteady hand on the tiller of the largest 'democracy' in the western world.
You really must be a misanthrope to think this is the right way forward.
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"The message I'm getting here is, politicians are not to be trusted so it's refreshing to have a narcissistic, psychopathic, uneducated, misogynistic, demented person with an unsteady hand on the tiller of the largest 'democracy' in the western world.
You really must be a misanthrope to think this is the right way forward."
I think you underestimate the breadth of the agenda that Trump supporters buy in to. In their view, not only politicians are untrustworthy, but also the whole political establishment, including the committees, advisers, civil servants and so on who collectively make up the so-called "swamp" that Trump is supposedly busy "draining".
Then there is left-wing culture, caricatured by them as "woke", "snowflakes" and so on, really consisting of pretty much anyone who opposes them, whether those people identify as left-wing or not. Any media outlet which does not support them is automatically labelled a purveyor of "fake news" - a label applied, in fact, to any inconvenient truths.
There is no subtlety, no nuance to any of their views - it is all or nothing.
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I think you underestimate the breadth of the agenda that Trump supporters buy in to.
There is no subtlety, no nuance to any of their views - it is all or nothing.
That raises an interesting choice : would you prefer a president you can trust to be a loony, or one who may turn out to be intelligent ?
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I will raise you a third way: an intelligent leader who tries genuinely to serve the best interests of his country and the wider world.
What!? Where did I get this mad, mixed-up idealistic view from?
Am I some sort of socialist? A communist?
Am I a far-right activist in disguise,?
I should crawl back under the rock I came from.
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I will raise you a third way: an intelligent leader who tries genuinely to serve the best interests of his country and the wider world.
What!? Where did I get this mad, mixed-up idealistic view from?
Am I some sort of socialist? A communist?
Am I a far-right activist in disguise,?
I should crawl back under the rock I came from.
No, you shouldn't, Unfortunately, only one side of the political centre is willing to have a grown-up discussion about our future. The other side is still smarting about losing some recent political battles and has been collectively sulking for 4 years or more.
I used to like debating people and discussing issue of importance, including seeing all sides of the argument. I now try and avoid most of them because they regularly descend into proverbial shouting matches, blame-games and no-platforming by those unwilling to properly discuss matters or admit that sometimes their side got it wrong, even when factual evidence is presented or in the wider public domain.
All they want to do is shout/shut down those with different viewpoints. That the general public increasingly doesn't like this and being called 'ists' and 'phobes' by such groups of people for saying so is indicative of where the problem lies.
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<< Unfortunately, only one side of the political centre is willing to have a grown-up discussion about our future. The other side is still smarting about losing some recent political battles and has been collectively sulking for 4 years or more. >>
That sounds unpleasantly like a gloat from someone on the 'winning' side. Although I was/am a Remainer, I see no point in keeping that pot boiling. My main objections at the time were (a) an unremitting failure by Brexiteers to explain what great advantages would result from leaving and (b) the small majority which tipped the balance on what was a very-long term decision. The terms of the referendum should have called for a bigger public demand.
However the consequences of Covid now appear more significant, and it may well be it could have a big impact on Getting Brexit Done. We may even start to wish we had stayed in :-)
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<< Unfortunately, only one side of the political centre is willing to have a grown-up discussion about our future. The other side is still smarting about losing some recent political battles and has been collectively sulking for 4 years or more. >>
That sounds unpleasantly like a gloat from someone on the 'winning' side. Although I was/am a Remainer, I see no point in keeping that pot boiling. My main objections at the time were (a) an unremitting failure by Brexiteers to explain what great advantages would result from leaving and (b) the small majority which tipped the balance on what was a very-long term decision. The terms of the referendum should have called for a bigger public demand.
However the consequences of Covid now appear more significant, and it may well be it could have a big impact on Getting Brexit Done. We may even start to wish we had stayed in :-)
No, I'm not gloating. I'm pointing out that too many people are acting like spoilt children mad at not getting their way (especially in democratic votes) and, rather than moving on to try and improve the nation (especially at the moment), they linger in the past, weighing the nation down.
How are you going to move on if you live in the past?
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I will raise you a third way: an intelligent leader who tries genuinely to serve the best interests of his country and the wider world.
What!? Where did I get this mad, mixed-up idealistic view from?
Am I some sort of socialist? A communist?
Am I a far-right activist in disguise,?
I should crawl back under the rock I came from.
No! What's the point of having a discussion/debate if there's no one giving opposing views? Otherwise it is just an echo chamber.
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"... would you prefer a president you can trust to be a loony, or one who may turn out to be intelligent ?"
Not a serious question, surely.
The "president you can trust to be a loony" is trustworthy in only respect: that he will behave like a loony, meaning he's unpredictable and irresponsible. No-one with any sense would trust someone like that.
Intelligence is no guarantee of any other valuable qualities - trustworthiness or anything else.
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Built the wall and reduced both legal and especially illegal immigration;
Not so. At best some existing infrastructure has been replaced and a small length added. Nothing close to what he promised.
Brought jobs back to the US and stopped many being moved to cheaper nations;
I'm not sure it looks like that in the USA where tariffs have increased cost of steel.
Why do you think that the same left-wing MSM have been helping their Democratic Party chums by going nuts on Orange Man Bad on Ukrainegate (lies, actually Biden's problem),
The lie, albeit by ommission is that Biden opposed corruption inquiries; the truth is that he opposed an inquiry that would simply cover up for the corruption.
Russiagate 1 & 2 (lies), now Chinagate (yet more lies) and trying to use them and false allegations to impeach him, none of which stood up to any scrutiny?
Nonsense. If the Republicans hadn't protected him by the senate majority and denying a proper trial he'd likely have been convicted.
All the while those same news outlets cover up the Dem's leadership calling Trump's shutting down of the broders a couple of months ago as 'racist' and wanting the US to stay open for Chinese New year, contrubuting to much of NYC's problems now, Biden's serious mental health concerns, his creepy behaviour towards women and young girls (to say the least) over several decades, Sanders own health problems and hardline socialist tendancies as well as lack of firm leadership (regularly being pushed aside at rallies by even more left wing protesters) and the woke, nutty leftist policies of his colleagues in congress.
You use of words like woke tell us all we need to know,
Good enough?
In a word No.
Utter rubbish from start to end. That you STILL believe Trump colluded with the Russians (which he didn't) and that the impeachment only made it to the Senate because there was a majority of Democrat congresspeople in the Lower house just shows how partisan the whole affair.
Why not save everyone time in reading your replies and just type 'Orange Man Bad'? It seems like many people on the political Left have terminally succumbed to the disease known as Trump Derrangement Sydrome.
If the American people don't like him, then they'll vote him out come November. Just like our General Election last December, everyone will have their chance to vote. Just because some people on one side of political aisle don't like what the other side does doesn't mean that their side's leader should be arrested, charged and sent to prison because they don't like what he or she says/does.
That such people have continued to wage the same old battle from day 1 of such people being in office and not to let go and move on is rather telling, especially when it means that even worse candidates from that side emerge, they pull further towards the extreme and further tick off moderates in the electorate, meaning they stand nearly no chance in gaining office any time soon.
The public are thoroughly fed up with certain people fighting battles already won/ended, and is the main reason why 70% of them are very unhappy with the media's coverage of the COVID-19 pandemic.
Stop blaming the other side for the losses (both sides of the Atlantic) in 2016. It ain't our fault. Time for you guys to look in the mirror.
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Utter rubbish from start to end.
Where is the wall? If you're going to bandy words like utter rubbish let's see some evidence that it's built and doing the job.
Similarly with Impeachment which, in the end, was mostly about Ukraine. If BOTH houses had taken the issue seriously, as they did with Nixon (which I'm just old enough to remember) he'd have been convicted.
I don't know what you mean about 'Trump Derangement Syndrome'. It's perfectly evident that he IS deranged and that he cannot follow even simple debate. Ample examples in this thread of how his condition manifests itself. I suspect the more terrifying revelations will come after he leaves office.
He was elected in 2016 but only because of the defects in the electoral college. Mrs C was the wrong candidate and the email thing was allowed to dominate the campaign.
Whether re-elected or not he is widely regarded as unfit for the office he holds. Few folks here, not exactly a hot bed of left/liberal thinking, except yourself and GB seem willing to defend him.
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Utter rubbish from start to end.
Where is the wall? If you're going to bandy words like utter rubbish let's see some evidence that it's built and doing the job.
A good deal of it has already been built, despite the Democrat Lower House trying their level best to stop it by witholding funds.
Similarly with Impeachment which, in the end, was mostly about Ukraine. If BOTH houses had taken the issue seriously, as they did with Nixon (which I'm just old enough to remember) he'd have been convicted.
Again, utter rubbish. Each House voted on part political lines. Stop trying to pretend that this is anything similar to Nixon. It's been well documented that many Democrats in Congress were heavily leaned on by their party leaders toboth bring about proceedings in the first place and to take it up to the Senate.
That they wanted to hold those proceedings without questioning by their Repulican counterparts shows none of the allegations held any water, plus they were trying to change them as they went along.
I don't know what you mean about 'Trump Derangement Syndrome'. It's perfectly evident that he IS deranged and that he cannot follow even simple debate. Ample examples in this thread of how his condition manifests itself. I suspect the more terrifying revelations will come after he leaves office.
Well, obviously, for better or worse, most Americans disagree. Just like over here with our PM.
He was elected in 2016 but only because of the defects in the electoral college. Mrs C was the wrong candidate and the email thing was allowed to dominate the campaign.
Funny how you thought that system was perfectly OK when it favoured the Democrat side. Their system was instituted so that the large metropolitan areas don't solely get to choose who leads the country.
I should note that studies have shown that in many heavily Blue states like California, NY etc, very large numbers of Republican voters never bother to vote in presidential elections, because they know, even if they all turned out, the state would still vote majority Democrat and their vote would be useless.
The studies found that as a result, if it was just based on no electoral college, that there was a high likelihood that Trump would've easily won the popular vote back in 2016, and would do again and with a larger margin in 2020, because he has higher poll ratings generally. The figures always quoted by those in the Democratic party and presumably by yourselves only include those who vote in the electoral college elections. Even left of centre US journalist and commentator Tim Pool realises this and has said so.
It's similar to the UK where each MP's constituency has many voters who don't turn out to vote because their preferred party never stands a chance in winning locally, which is why the smaller UK-wide parties (e.g. the Lib Dems or, at the last Election, The Brexit Party and UKIP in 2015) always do far worse than their voter share.
It's also the reason why the polls and pundits called the Brexit referrendum incorrectly, because many people who normally never voted in General Elections did, because it was a national binary choice where their vote counted equally.
Whether re-elected or not he is widely regarded as unfit for the office he holds. Few folks here, not exactly a hot bed of left/liberal thinking, except yourself and GB seem willing to defend him.
He is widely regarded as being unfit for office by the mainstream media, activists who politically oppose the Republicans (or Conservatives in the UK) and the screaming nutters on Twitter. That does not mean that most people hold that view.
And besides, he was democratically elected (see above) on a system you people never had any problems with before (well, perhaps this started in 2000) and where he can easily be voted out come Novermber. Not only do I expect him to be re-elected, and on a higher majority than before (a very good chance in that also being a majority of the actual total vote too), but that the Republicans will also make serious gains in Congress and take back the Lower House.
Partly down to Trump, but mainly down to the incompetence and increasingly Hard Left views and actions of the Democratic Party and many of their Congressmen and women, ones like Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, AOC and the rest of 'The Squad' (in particular), plus all of their 2020 presidential candidates (aside from Tulsi Gabbard [quite good actually] and, to a lesser extent, Andrew Yang), epsecially Bernie and Creepy/Sleepy/Senile Uncle Joe Biden.
BTW - I and GB have EVERY right to defend (to varying degrees) the US President (and to criticise him) as you do, as we too live in a democratic society and supposedly have freedom of speech. Have you ever thought that most people who are members of this forum/site just don't want to get involved, rather than a majority support your viewpoint? What arrogance. And you wonder why Labour and the Dems are doing so badly of late?
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1. '"Where is the wall? If you're going to bandy words like utter rubbish let's see some evidence that it's built and doing the job."
A good deal of it has already been built...'
"In September 2019, Trump said he planned to build 450–500 miles of new wall by the end of 2020."
"... 93 miles of new wall has been built during the Trump administration; according to CBP figures, at least 90 miles of that replaced existing structures..." (Wikipedia, quoting US government sources)
2. '"It's perfectly evident that he IS deranged and that he cannot follow even simple debate. Ample examples in this thread of how his condition manifests itself. I suspect the more terrifying revelations will come after he leaves office."
Well, obviously, for better or worse, most Americans disagree.'
Trump's approval ratings currently: 52.6% disapprove; 43.3% approve - an aggregate of all polls. (projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-rating.../)
3. " I and GB have EVERY right to defend (to varying degrees) the US President (and to criticise him) as you do, as we too live in a democratic society and supposedly have freedom of speech. Have you ever thought that most people who are members of this forum/site just don't want to get involved, rather than a majority support your viewpoint? What arrogance. And you wonder why Labour and the Dems are doing so badly of late?"
Presumably this is in response to Bromptonaut's "Few folks here, not exactly a hot bed of left/liberal thinking, except yourself and GB seem willing to defend him."
This seems pretty reasonable - most members of the forum probably don't wish to join the discussion, but the fact is that Trump has been shown little support here. Why you think that means Bromp is arrogant isn't clear and the tone of your comment is petulant.
Why do you think anyone here is saying you have no right to defend Trump? Of course you do, but please try to make a better job of doing so.
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More fake news against Trump being debunked today:
youtu.be/5frKRkXFj_k
Not from Fox News, but from Tim Pool. To add to the many pieces he has run showing up the lies.
FP - you do realise that Mr Disapprove isn't running against Trump. Creepy Uncle Joe is. Noting that Trump's polling is increasing, not decreasing. That means that ihe won on a lower poll rating in 2016, he should easily win in 2020.
This forum isn't the Trump Fan or Orange Man Bad Club - it's a motoring forum where we also talk about other issues from time to time. I'm not the one being petulant - I'm thoroughly fed up of being accused of being some nutty undeucated extremist by some who fail to see facts in front of their faces.
I also note that a large amount of my comments weren't refuted, presumably because they cannot be.
Keep ranting if you guys want to - it seems to have the opposite effect on most people that you want.
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More fake news against Trump being debunked today:
youtu.be/5frKRkXFj_k
Not from Fox News, but from Tim Pool. To add to the many pieces he has run showing up the lies.
FP - you do realise that Mr Disapprove isn't running against Trump. Creepy Uncle Joe is. Noting that Trump's polling is increasing, not decreasing. That means that ihe won on a lower poll rating in 2016, he should easily win in 2020.
This forum isn't the Trump Fan or Orange Man Bad Club - it's a motoring forum where we also talk about other issues from time to time. I'm not the one being petulant - I'm thoroughly fed up of being accused of being some nutty undeucated extremist by some who fail to see facts in front of their faces.
I also note that a large amount of my comments weren't refuted, presumably because they cannot be.
Keep ranting if you guys want to - it seems to have the opposite effect on most people that you want.
That's not fake news that has been debunked - it's news that was reported, found to be wrong and then published telling people it was wrong.
Fake new is deliberately wrong - thought you would understand the difference.
Not seen any ranting on here, Andy - think you are seeing what you want to see - all seems pretty reasonable to me on here. People are not ranting if they don't agree with you.
You've still not explained about the wall:
93 miles of new wall has been built during the Trump administration; according to CBP figures, at least 90 miles of that replaced existing structures..."
You've been told: Are you going to refute that after all his promises he has build 3 miles worth of new wall.
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sentence means anyway, but...that last comment you quoted wasn't mine, and they haven't just built 3 miles worth of border wall. Get your facts straight. I note that nobody refuted the economic situation (prior to the pandemic).
"You've been told" - What Are you telling me what to say? How very 1984.
Also, all that fake news was deliberate, as Tim Pool says in his video (if you'd watched), which is why Politico only 'updated' their article at gone 11pm and not earlier in the day when it would've been seen. This type of thing is not the first, but probably numbering in the many dozen by now.
That they didn't follow standard journalistic procedure and get three sources for verification and ran it as fact, and not even an ellegation shows that like many stories, they are deliberately running them, and when (rarely) the media retract them, they do it after the damage has been done, often days later when no-one is going to read the updated article.
If you think all these other people are being reasonable, why do many of them bring up lies that have already been debunked, or deflect, or don't refute comments? Brompt's comments about impeachment are an obvious one, where the whole thing was based on flimsy evidence at best by partisan politicinas who wanted the whole think done behind closed doors, because, lo and behold, when it was properly scriutinised, every charge fell apart.
That they only reached the Senate because members of the Democrats in the Lower House were seriously leaned on by their leaders to vote to send it up showed this, and a few have no disowned them, one I believe resigning and joining the Republicans. And yet, people here still say he would've been impeached - but of course, only if the Democrats had a majority in both Houses and a 2/3rds one in the Senate, voting along party lines.
I'd personally call parroting lies from the likes on CNN and the NYT that have already been thoroughly debunked in emotive terms 'ranting', especially when some are essentially saying that GB and I should 'know better'. I am always sceptical of mainstream newspaper and TV News reporting these days because they have form, and I even include the paper I subscribe to, the Telegraph, as well.
There is very little straight factual news reporting nowadays is what I and Tim Pool are complaining about - the 'broadsheets' are now essentially tabloids without as much celeb gossip.
I'd suggest you watch a good number of his YouTube videos, as your eyes will be opened. He isn't some alt-right commentator either, he's a left-of centre journalist, so technically doesn't match up with my conservative-leaning philosophy, but what we both share is that we value truth, integrity and honesty, especially in news reporting. I may not agree with a reasonable amount of his politics, but those other values mean that I respect his opinion, especially because he doesn't hide the truth as many journalists now do.
That he also values genuine debate and has shown up many on the far left as authoritiarians and suppressors of debate and free speech also puts him in my good books.
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sentence means anyway, but...that last comment you quoted wasn't mine, and they haven't just built 3 miles worth of border wall. Get your facts straight. I note that nobody refuted the economic situation (prior to the pandemic).
You keep mentioning the wall. Do you have an alternative source for how much has been completed?
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"FP - you do realise that Mr Disapprove isn't running against Trump. Creepy Uncle Joe is. Noting that Trump's polling is increasing, not decreasing. That means that ihe won on a lower poll rating in 2016, he should easily win in 2020.
This forum isn't the Trump Fan or Orange Man Bad Club - it's a motoring forum where we also talk about other issues from time to time. I'm not the one being petulant - I'm thoroughly fed up of being accused of being some nutty undeucated extremist by some who fail to see facts in front of their faces.
I also note that a large amount of my comments weren't refuted, presumably because they cannot be.
Keep ranting if you guys want to - it seems to have the opposite effect on most people that you want."
1. "Noting that Trump's polling is increasing, not decreasing." I suggest you look again at my source for Trump's approval/disapproval ratings. 52.6% (and sharply increasing) disapprove; 42.6% (and sharply falling) approve. In addition, 51% of voters disapprove of Trump’s coronavirus response; 43% approve, a drop of 22 points since mid-March. (morningconsult.com/2020/04/27/trump-coronavirus-ne.../)
2. "This forum isn't the Trump Fan or Orange Man Bad Club - it's a motoring forum where we also talk about other issues from time to time."
Yes, we know that. Your point being?
3. " I'm not the one being petulant - I'm thoroughly fed up of being accused of being some nutty undeucated extremist by some who fail to see facts in front of their faces."
Who has accused you of this? When? Even your sentence above sounds petulant and it seems you're getting emotional about what should surely be a debate of views based on facts. If the ones who disagree with you are "failing to see facts" then tell us - but also deal with the facts we present - like how much of Trump's wall has been built.
4. “I also note that a large amount of my comments weren't refuted, presumably because they cannot be.” There have been an awful lot of “facts” thrown around; if you feel you have a few particularly strong ones that support your argument I suggest you repeat those for us to consider.
5. "Keep ranting if you guys want to - it seems to have the opposite effect on most people that you want."
Again, you seem to misunderstand what's going on here. I don't see any ranting among those who disagree with you. And I don't know what "effect" you think I or anyone else is trying to achieve. I'm simply debating an issue and its various ramifications. You seem to be the one that's getting steamed up. Some people might see that as a sign of desperation.
Edited by FP on 29/04/2020 at 11:53
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<< He is widely regarded as being unfit for office by the mainstream media, activists who politically oppose the Republicans (or Conservatives in the UK) and the screaming nutters on Twitter. >>
I wasn't going to bother adding more to this becoming-tedious thread, but this remark should not pass. One of the nuttiest 'nutters on Twitter' is the president himself. I also consider that making daily public remarks on Twitter (or other social media) should be beneath the dignity of an elected national leader, especially if they usually sound derogatory.
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<< If the American people don't like him, then they'll vote him out come November. >>
Maybe, but probably not. Americans will be offered an unattractive choice, and most of them will continue to vote for the candidate wearing the preferred team strip, nothing more.
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<< If the American people don't like him, then they'll vote him out come November. >>
Maybe, but probably not. Americans will be offered an unattractive choice, and most of them will continue to vote for the candidate wearing the preferred team strip, nothing more.
Perhaps the the political Left should looking at their own side to the quality of the candidates on offer and the effectiveness of their politicians in Congress, rather than continually screaming 'Orange Man Bad' all day?
After all, if Trump is such a bad candidate, surely any old Democrat could beat him. All evidence to the contrary.
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Built the wall? What wall? There is no new wall that I have seen. There have been some modest upgrades to the existing infrastructure, but that's it. A tweet from DT regarding the wall and Mexicans: "They're bring drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.".
He certainly did bring jobs back to America. That is definitely a good thing.
Regarding the employment levels, it doesn't surprise me that he has had success as he has the Senate and Congress on his side. Obama was hamstrung for 6 of his 8 years by the republicans. But is it really surprising that unemployment drops given that most nations are just getting back on their feet after the 2008 crash.
I do agree with you regarding China's culpability in terms of Covid and the disgraceful turning of eye's with some hefty cheques.
I also agree with you on Biden. There really should be an age cap on Presidential eligibility (60 would be the top end in my opinion). I know I'll come across as ageist saying that, but I stand by it.
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Ignore me. I'm still getting used to this forum's structure. I didn't realise the last post from this particular thread was almost a month old.
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