What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Steveieb

It’s well known that the addition of ethanol in petrol used in garden machinery engines and classic motorcycles is damaging carburettor s and supply pipes to the extent they need replacing rather than servicing.

Blocked jets and pipes that can’t be cleared by conventional means , even ultrasonics as it sets rock hard.

Additives prove useless too I’m told .

But has anyone suffered damage to their car engines ?

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - focussed
"But has anyone suffered damage to their car engines ?"

No because I don't run petrol fuelled cars, just two motorcycles as well as the aforementioned garden machinery.

I have had problems with one motorcycle and several items of garden kit.

Blocked injectors./fuel pump corrosion on the FJR 1300 and corroded fuel lines and carb diaphragms on various strimmers and mowers..

I stopped the problem by not buying fuel with ethanol content,

Having said that E95 is probably ok to run in vehicles that are being used regularly, and not being stored wih E95 in the tank, but you have to remember to fill with non ethanol fuel before any period of non-use.

Petrol diluted with ethanol does not serve any useful purpose, apart from increasing fuel company profits as ethanol is cheaper than petrol, and is just virtue sigalling by governments to be seen to be doing "something".

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - skidpan

It’s well known that the addition of ethanol in petrol used in garden machinery engines and classic motorcycles is damaging carburettor s and supply pipes to the extent they need replacing rather than servicing.

Blocked jets and pipes that can’t be cleared by conventional means , even ultrasonics as it sets rock hard.

Additives prove useless too I’m told .

But has anyone suffered damage to their car engines ?

Simple solution, in engines not suitable to use E10 use E5. There is no way I would spend the extra when an engine is able to run on E10 safely but whilst E5 is more expensive its way cheaper than replacing parts. I use E5 in our mower (its probably 30 years old) and also in the Caterham. The Ford Zetec engine is fine with E10 but some of the parts I have used in a non-standard install come with no info regarding E10.

I had issues with the Caterham as far back as 2009 when some ethanol was being added to petrol and some of the pipes I had used (stated as being suitable for use with modern fuel) went rock hard within a 4 year period and cracked causing a pretty massive petrol leak when there is 3 bar in the system. All suspect pipes replaced with very high spec alternatives and OK since. This is not unknown in the classic car area.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - mcb100
‘ Petrol diluted with ethanol does not serve any useful purpose, apart from increasing fuel company profits as ethanol is cheaper than petrol, and is just virtue sigalling by governments to be seen to be doing "something".’

It doesn’t take too long on Google to find out that the adoption of E10 has the potential to cut CO2 emissions by 750,000 tons per year just in the UK, despite an increase in fuel usage because it’s less energy dense.

But it’s not what we’ve always done, so it must be virtue signaling, probably woke, nonsense.
What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - skidpan

Having said that E95 is probably ok to run in vehicles that are being used regularly, and not being stored wih E95 in the tank, but you have to remember to fill with non ethanol fuel before any period of non-use.

Can you actually buy E95 and are there any cars that can safely use it?

E85 does seem to exist but production cars don't seem to be able to use it. Looks like there are 5 places that sell it in the UK.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - gordonbennet

Not using the new sweepings up stuff in our Forester.

Mower wise, after spending nearly £100 getting our Hayter (fings aint wot they used to be there either, my dad swore by them in the 60's) fully serviced and sharpened last spring by the end of last year and using what is supposed to be proper petrol we had non starting issues once again, didn't have these issues in years gone by but the last 3 or 4 years carb clogging has been a headache.

Gave up on the Hayter and bought a Dewalt battery driven jobbie, bought in November and gave the grass its final cut with the new purchase, soaking wet, where the Hayter would clog up unless the grass was bone dry requiring clearing out often a dozen times the Dewalt went straight through it.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - mcb100
‘Not using the new sweepings up stuff in our Forester.

Mower wise, after spending nearly £100 getting our Hayter (fings aint wot they used to be there either, my dad swore by them in the 60's) fully serviced and sharpened last spring by the end of last year and using what is supposed to be proper petrol we had non starting issues once again, didn't have these issues in years gone by but the last 3 or 4 years carb clogging has been a headache.

Gave up on the Hayter and bought a Dewalt battery driven jobbie, bought in November and gave the grass its final cut with the new purchase, soaking wet, where the Hayter would clog up unless the grass was bone dry requiring clearing out often a dozen times the Dewalt went straight through it.’

The advantage of EV over ICE….).
What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - corax
’ The advantage of EV over ICE….).

They're OK until you want to cut big lawns, then you need bigger batteries and it becomes expensive, just like EV's.

If a car is being used regularly, then ethanol is not a problem. It's when it's been unused for a long time. Isn't that the same with old classics and straight petrol though?

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - gordonbennet

They're OK until you want to cut big lawns, then you need bigger batteries and it becomes expensive, just like EV's.

It uses a pair of 5ah batteries, can complete our grass on one charge but i have a second pair if needs be.

Can't believe how good the thing is compared to my not that old Hayter, wherein i dare say is the issue, my dad who was a professional swore by Hayter, and Ransomes for the larger ride on superwide mowers, all i've done since buying this Hayter recycler is swear at it.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - corax

They're OK until you want to cut big lawns, then you need bigger batteries and it becomes expensive, just like EV's.

It uses a pair of 5ah batteries, can complete our grass on one charge but i have a second pair if needs be.

Can't believe how good the thing is compared to my not that old Hayter, wherein i dare say is the issue, my dad who was a professional swore by Hayter, and Ransomes for the larger ride on superwide mowers, all i've done since buying this Hayter recycler is swear at it.

It makes sense if you have the batteries and charger already for other tools.

The Hayters I used to use at work were never good at picking up wet grass. The decks design doesn't seem to be good for high airflow which is important. Maybe they are constrained by the fact they use alloy, I don't know, but they haven't changed much. Cloth bags also get clogged up quickly which reduces airflow still further. They never started easily when warm, and is was a heavy, long throw pull start. I have an Al-ko with a plastic grass box and it throws the wet cuttings to the back of the box, deck design is deep and designed for airflow, so it's very good.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - John F
’ The advantage of EV over ICE….).

They're OK until you want to cut big lawns, then you need bigger batteries and it becomes expensive, just like EV's.

They're OK until the battery fails and refuses to recharge, like my pricey (because of the battery) Bosch rotary - lasted a mere 4yrs. Only advantages were easy starting and light weight, bought mainly for Mrs F in case I was incapacitated. Back to the decades old Mountfield Empress, supplemented by my inherited 1960s vintage Atco 17 cylinder mower.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - galileo

Having said that E95 is probably ok to run in vehicles that are being used regularly, and not being stored with E95 in the tank, but you have to remember to fill with non ethanol fuel before any period of non-use.

Can you actually buy E95 and are there any cars that can safely use it?

E85 does seem to exist but production cars don't seem to be able to use it. Looks like there are 5 places that sell it in the UK.

Shell V power has a maximum of 5% ethanol, its readily available, I've run the car on it for years with no problems.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Steveieb

Read somewhere that Esso superunleaded has the least amount of ethanol of all fuels.

Must say that I haven’t seen many garden contractors using battery mowers!

Are diesel engines less vulnerable to the 7% of ethanol that is added ?

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - focussed

Read somewhere that Esso superunleaded has the least amount of ethanol of all fuels.

Must say that I haven’t seen many garden contractors using battery mowers!

Are diesel engines less vulnerable to the 7% of ethanol that is added ?

Ethanol is added to petrol not diesel. Diesel fuel doesn't deteriorate like petrol, unless it gets infected with the diesel bug.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbial_contamination_of_d...l

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - bathtub tom

I presumed focussed meant E10 when he said E95.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - focussed

I presumed focussed meant E10 when he said E95.

Sorry I got mixed up with the E numbers.

In France we have:-

SP 98 (E5) (Up to 5% ethanol - most outlets here are ethanol free.

Total Excellium 98 is definitely ethanol free at least where I buy mine from.

SP 95 (E10)

SP 95 (E5)

and E85 (E85) Only for flex -fuel enabled vehicles, approved aftermarket kits are available.

(E85 is really cheap 84 cents a litre but 25% less mileage per litre).

SP means "sans plomb" without lead - unleaded.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - focussed
‘’ It doesn’t take too long on Google to find out that the adoption of E10 has the potential to cut CO2 emissions by 750,000 tons per year just in the UK, despite an increase in fuel usage because it’s less energy dense. But it’s not what we’ve always done, so it must be virtue signaling, probably woke, nonsense.

750,000 tonnes? Where on earth did you get that figure from?

It didn't take me long to find that the alleged reduction of CO2 by the use of ethanol in petrol has largely been officially debunked, by no less a body than the EEA Science committee.

A 2011 opinion from the Science Committee of the European Environment Agency pointed out what it called a “serious accounting error.” The carbon neutral concept does not consider vegetation that would naturally grow on land used for biofuel production. Since biofuels are less efficient than gasoline or diesel fuel, they actually emit more CO2 per mile driven than hydrocarbon fuels, when proper accounting is used for carbon sequestered in natural vegetation.

file:///C:/Users/barns/Downloads/SC%20Opinion%20on%20GHG%20in%20rel%20bioenergy%20-%20final%2015%20September%202011.pdf

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Terry W
The carbon neutral concept does not consider vegetation that would naturally grow on land used for biofuel production. Since biofuels are less efficient than gasoline or diesel fuel, they actually emit more CO2 per mile driven than hydrocarbon fuels, when proper accounting is used for carbon sequestered in natural vegetation.

The observation that biofuels are less efficient per mile may be correct, but only a partial truth.

The carbon released by biofuels when they are burnt is offset by the carbon sequestered in growing crops. Even if biofuels are not replanted, the land will absorb carbon in the growth of weeds and trees, probably within a year or two.

By contrast burning fossil fuels is offsetting the carbon absorbed 1-200m years ago - it would be absurd to connect events so distant.

Thus the net carbon produced by biofuels is somewhere from zero assuming bio based planting, fertilisation, harvesting and refining and should be compared with the total emissions from fossil fuels..

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Andrew-T

<< Thus the net carbon produced by biofuels is somewhere from zero assuming bio based planting, fertilisation, harvesting and refining and should be compared with the total emissions from fossil fuels. >>

Absolutely right. If this offsetting notion (a realistically impossible one, probably dreamt up by some sort of accountant) is to be done, it has to be done thoroughly, not selectively. Most of the figures on both sides of the account can only be estimated roughly, so I'm afraid a good dose of common sense is called for (whatever that is).

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - John F

But has anyone suffered damage to their car engines ?

I think only high milers in old cars might be vulnerable. Decades ago I was warned that the valves in my 43yr old TR7's slant four 2.0l would burn out with unleaded petrol. Now it seems its SU carb needles might dissolve. I think the only possible weak spot is the recently replaced 6" rubber pipe linking the petrol tank to the fuel pipework.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - mcb100
‘ 750,000 tonnes? Where on earth did you get that figure from?’

The government’s own website -

www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained
What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - galileo
‘ 750,000 tonnes? Where on earth did you get that figure from?’ The government’s own website - www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained

I have learned over my 70+ years to treat anything Governments, local Authorities, Utility suppliers or similar bodies say with a very large amount of cynicism.

On the rare occasions when they tell the truth it is probably by accident.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Terry W

your cynicism is usually justified - but in this case their estimate may be understated!

Assume each petrol car averages 40mpg, 10,000 miles pa = 250 gallons.

Each gallon of petrol generates 8kg of CO2.

Thus each car emits 2000kg (2 tons) pa. 19m petrol cars in the UK release 38m tons of CO2.

E10 compared to E5 reduces the CO2 associated with petrol by 5% - 1.9m tons.

When burnt in an engine, CO2 from ethanol is similar to petrol but it is unclear what level of CO2 emissions are assumed for the ethanol content - processing of bio-fuels and carbon sequestration in new growth.

What damage is ethanol causing in car engines ? - Andrew-T

When burnt in an engine, CO2 from ethanol is similar to petrol but it is unclear what level of CO2 emissions are assumed for the ethanol content - processing of bio-fuels and carbon sequestration in new growth.

CO2 is CO2, whatever it comes from. The only offsetting possible is the difference between digging up petroleum (from geologically ancient trees) and ethanol recently made from fresh greenery. If vehicles need to burn more E10 than they would E5 to travel the same distance, the carbon balance may be smaller than expected ?